Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

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Jon in Sweden
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Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Further to my thread in the travel section about Madeira, I'm curious about what might be the best (and most cost effective) way to set up a road bike for extreme hill climbing?

I have a number of bikes. Mercian 531 with 10sp Ultegra triple, Cannondale CaadX gravel, Orbea Vector Drop (set up for road) with discs and Canyon Endurace CL.

The Orbea seems like the most sensible option to take. It's running Tiagra with a long cage mech and an 11-34 tooth sprocket. I think Tiagra can run a bigger cassette though, where the 105 on my Canyon can't.

Looking at Madeira, the climbs are the most savage I've seen anywhere (on paper). 10-15km of 10% average seems standard, with lots of sections at 25%. I'm fit, strong but also heavy (105kg) which means I am not built for hills (though I love them).

Seems sensible to me to maybe set up the Orbea with a massive cassette on the back. The disc brakes (as much as I dislike them) are probably wise for the very long descents too.

Thoughts?
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by pwa »

That sounds like a simple modification if it will work. I'm guessing you already have the smallest chainring your chainset will take. You may need a longer chain too, depending how much slack your current one has. I always give a new cassette a new chain anyway.
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 7:11am Further to my thread in the travel section about Madeira, I'm curious about what might be the best (and most cost effective) way to set up a road bike for extreme hill climbing?

I have a number of bikes. Mercian 531 with 10sp Ultegra triple, Cannondale CaadX gravel, Orbea Vector Drop (set up for road) with discs and Canyon Endurace CL.

The Orbea seems like the most sensible option to take. It's running Tiagra with a long cage mech and an 11-34 tooth sprocket. I think Tiagra can run a bigger cassette though, where the 105 on my Canyon can't.

Looking at Madeira, the climbs are the most savage I've seen anywhere (on paper). 10-15km of 10% average seems standard, with lots of sections at 25%. I'm fit, strong but also heavy (105kg) which means I am not built for hills (though I love them).

Seems sensible to me to maybe set up the Orbea with a massive cassette on the back. The disc brakes (as much as I dislike them) are probably wise for the very long descents too.

Thoughts?
Depends on exact models - rather than just "Tiagra" you need to specify the precise model number on the derailleurs.

But I'd be surprised if a road derailleur will go much beyond 34 if at all without modification. You can add a wolf tooth hanger extender or similar which allows a larger rear cassette.

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/roadlink

I've used one of these to get a 105 5800 11speed set up from 32 to 36 for touring. It's just possible that might get you to an 11-40 cassette? But it's a pricey bit of suck it and see!

The downside is that you'll be beyond the capacity of the derailleur, so can get chain slap in gears approaching the small/small combo.

If you want substantially lower gears, you probably need a new chainset and accompanying bottom bracket, and if you've braze on fittings that may not be possible as you won't be able to get the front derailleur low enough.

If you change anything, there's one golden rule:

Always check on the stand the chain is long enough to run big/big. Even though you don't want to run this combo, if you accidentally engage it, and the chain is too short, you'll tear your transmission apart.;
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 7:11am Further to my thread in the travel section about Madeira, I'm curious about what might be the best (and most cost effective) way to set up a road bike for extreme hill climbing?

I have a number of bikes. Mercian 531 with 10sp Ultegra triple, Cannondale CaadX gravel, Orbea Vector Drop (set up for road) with discs and Canyon Endurace CL.

The Orbea seems like the most sensible option to take. It's running Tiagra with a long cage mech and an 11-34 tooth sprocket. I think Tiagra can run a bigger cassette though, where the 105 on my Canyon can't.

Looking at Madeira, the climbs are the most savage I've seen anywhere (on paper). 10-15km of 10% average seems standard, with lots of sections at 25%. I'm fit, strong but also heavy (105kg) which means I am not built for hills (though I love them).

Seems sensible to me to maybe set up the Orbea with a massive cassette on the back. The disc brakes (as much as I dislike them) are probably wise for the very long descents too.

Thoughts?
Current thread on sub compact chainsets if you go that way

viewtopic.php?t=153478
Nearholmer
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Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Nearholmer »

Gravel bikes usually come with low bottom gears, so have you looked at yours with a view to perhaps lowering it further?

If it has 1x with a 42T largest cog at the back, it’s dead easy to drop the gear range by putting a tiny chain ring on, MTB style almost, you can probably get down to a 0.7 ratio by doing that. GRX 2x is a little more complex to get down below an overall ratio of 0.88, but people do it.
mig
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by mig »

whilst i understand the details regarding lowering gear ratios i always think that having the low gear is one thing but being able to pedal it fluently for long periods of time is quite another.

i would take some time to habituate your riding to any significantly lower gears before using them in anger.
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Jon in Sweden »

mig wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 9:58am whilst i understand the details regarding lowering gear ratios i always think that having the low gear is one thing but being able to pedal it fluently for long periods of time is quite another.

i would take some time to habituate your riding to any significantly lower gears before using them in anger.
I completely understand where you're coming from. The difficulty is that here in SE Sweden, we just don't have the kind of hills that I could practice on. It's certainly not flat, but what can actually prepare you for hills like on Madeira?
Nearholmer wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 9:19am Gravel bikes usually come with low bottom gears, so have you looked at yours with a view to perhaps lowering it further?

If it has 1x with a 42T largest cog at the back, it’s dead easy to drop the gear range by putting a tiny chain ring on, MTB style almost, you can probably get down to a 0.7 ratio by doing that. GRX 2x is a little more complex to get down below an overall ratio of 0.88, but people do it.
Mine actually has annoyingly high gearing for a gravel bike. I guess because it's quite old. It's 46/36 on the front and 11/30 on the back. It's a standard 105 mech on the back. It would take more adjustment to adapt the Cannondale than the Orbea, I think.
roubaixtuesday wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 8:10am
Current thread on sub compact chainsets if you go that way

viewtopic.php?t=153478
Many thanks - I'll look at that.

Could I maybe just go MTB for a rear mech? Are the cable pull increments the same between Shimano road and MTB?

Noted regarding chain length too. Thank you.
pwa wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 7:31am That sounds like a simple modification if it will work. I'm guessing you already have the smallest chainring your chainset will take. You may need a longer chain too, depending how much slack your current one has. I always give a new cassette a new chain anyway.
Thanks for that :D


Thank you for all the feedback. I feel that I'm fit enough to get to the tops of these climbs on my road bikes as they are, but I couldn't do a full week of it. Reducing the gearing a bit just seems like a sensible way of ensuring that I enjoy myself. I wouldn't want to be half way up a climb on the other side of the island to my accommodation and my legs blow up.
rjb
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by rjb »

If tackling some really steep climbs you need to practise getting your balance on the bike correct. You have to maintain weight over the rear wheel to keep traction and prevent wheelspin, whilst having sufficient weight on the bars to stop the front wheel lifting. Wet and slippery climbs are a challenge.
Good luck
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 10:14am Could I maybe just go MTB for a rear mech? Are the cable pull increments the same between Shimano road and MTB?
They're different AIUI.

See for example

https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buyers ... railleurs/

You can often run components slightly outside their nominal specs, for example I use one of these quite happily on a 36T cassette, though it's only specced for 34. Thing is, 11 speed kit is pricey, and you don't know if it'll be OK until you try it.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-GS.html

You can look up the specs on your components, but you do need the specific model number. There's no "standard 105" derailleur, even in 11 speed (there's about 4 IIRC). It'll be stamped on the part somewhere, or look at the original spec.
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Jon in Sweden »

rjb wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 10:27am If tackling some really steep climbs you need to practise getting your balance on the bike correct. You have to maintain weight over the rear wheel to keep traction and prevent wheelspin, whilst having sufficient weight on the bars to stop the front wheel lifting. Wet and slippery climbs are a challenge.
Good luck
I've done Porlock main road, which is (I guess) where I developed my love of climbing stupidly steep roads.
roubaixtuesday wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 10:29am
Jon in Sweden wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 10:14am Could I maybe just go MTB for a rear mech? Are the cable pull increments the same between Shimano road and MTB?
They're different AIUI.

See for example

https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buyers ... railleurs/

You can often run components slightly outside their nominal specs, for example I use one of these quite happily on a 36T cassette, though it's only specced for 34. Thing is, 11 speed kit is pricey, and you don't know if it'll be OK until you try it.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-GS.html

You can look up the specs on your components, but you do need the specific model number. There's no "standard 105" derailleur, even in 11 speed (there's about 4 IIRC). It'll be stamped on the part somewhere, or look at the original spec.
Thanks for the info. A lot to consider!

It almost seems as if a repurposed gravel bike might be the best option. Something with a massive rear sprocket, but on road tyres.
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Cugel
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Cugel »

Perhaps it won't work with your tiagra lever pull-ratio but a Shimano 9-speed MTB rear mech will work very well with Shimano road 10-speed gear/brake levers. Such 9-speed mechs can handle more teeth and a larger sprocket than road mechs. I have a bike with a 52/39/30 chainset and a 13-36 cassette that works fine with a Shimano 9-speed XTR MTB rear mech having a capacity of 45 teeth.

***********
However, for hill climbing another major factor is important - the efficiency of the frame, fork and wheels at transmitting your efforts to where the back tyre meets the road. If you use a frame and/or wheels that have a lot of energy-sapping flex, this will waste a significant portion of your thrusting wattage. On long and steep hills this matters.

Some frames flex in a good way - their compliance smooths out judders and other road-induced vibrations but still returns the flexing forces to the back wheel somehow. It's hard to say how this happens exactly but there's no doubt that frames and wheels built for climbing (and not just lightweight) can make a noticeable difference. Be wary of the "lightweight is better" thing as "light" can also mean "a flexy energy waster" especially with big lads like you.

The only way to discover if one of your frames and one of your wheelsets is better at climbing is to try all you have and look for what seems to feel and perform better on the long upward journeys. This can be a hard factor to isolate as there are so many other factors that affect climbing, not least how you personally feel and operate physiologically at the time of the ride. What if you've eaten insufficient porridge or drank too much of the local hooch last night? :-)

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Valbrona
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Valbrona »

I'll tell you what ... do anything but fit a triple.
I should coco.
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Cugel
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Cugel »

Valbrona wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 2:09pm I'll tell you what ... do anything but fit a triple.
Pshaw! A completely incorrect piece of advice. :-)

Why are triples good for hill climbing, especially the long steep 'uns? In a phrase: close ratio gears.

When on the limit of your effort - a common condition when climbing long hills with variable gradients scattered along 'em - you need to have the gear ratio giving your ideal cadence for those sort of efforts. Even a 5% change in cadence can be a hinderance to maximum and sustainable effort.

A triple chainset can provide both high and very low gears whilst allowing the cassette to have closer ratios between the sprockets. A double chainset usually means that the cassette will need a wider range instead, which means big toof-jumps. A large change in gear ratio when climbing at the limit of one's effort can be a stopper. You either find your self grinding or spinning at a rate that consumes more energy to maintain the spin. (Spinning can be more efficient at keeping the joints from large stress-pain but not necessarily at transmitting thrust from pedal to back wheel).

Big lads, such as our OP, often find they need an ideal cadence because grinding will put a lot more stress on their joints but spinning those big legs faster will tend to absorb significant energy not transmitted to the back wheel.

So there. :-)

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Valbrona wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 2:09pm I'll tell you what ... do anything but fit a triple.
Because it would require an entire new groupset?
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Jon in Sweden »

I do wonder if the Mercian that I have might fit the bill? It's on a 3x10 Ultegra groupset, with 52/42/30 on the front. Could I go a little smaller than 30 for the inside chainring? It's 11-30 on the back.

Back in the UK, I tended to climb more out of the saddle as the hills were much steeper than here in Sweden. Now, I rarely exceed 10%, and seated is always faster. If I can maintain a seated position with a highish cadence, I will be able to climb for much longer. Getting out of the saddle is quite energy consuming at 105kg.

The Mercian isn't hugely stiff though compared to the more modern bikes I have. I'm not sure how it'd be on the extremely long descents.
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