Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

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foxyrider
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by foxyrider »

I don't neccesarily agree with everything Dingdong says but being the veteran of climbing some pretty serious alpine stuff in terms of length and steepness both on a race bike and fully loaded with camping gear, lower gears are not always the boon some claim. IME, if you are riding light all that happens with silly low hears is that you end up riding slower and slower.

Indeed when i did the silly Oetztaler event they advised a low gear of 34x27, this to tackle grades in the high teens and climbs up to 40km long, Given i was 53 when i did it and certainly not race fit, (i was about 85kg at 178cm), i found that enough, the 29 i'd fitted as safety zone barely got touched and only on the last Timmelsjoch climb, most of the climbing was in the 21/23 sprockets. The 52/11 got more use than the low gears, i was pedaling out on that at times on the descents!

On the Airnimal, which has been the go to bike on most of my alpine jaunts, the low gear is 19", i get that with 26x28 on the 54/40/26 triple - it has 520/24" wheels. Even then, the low gear has rarely seen use as i just end up spinning my legs like a top as soon as the grade drops below 20% so i find the 26x26 better even if i have to heave it a bit. i've never had to resort to walking because of the gearing, heat and road surface occasionally but not usually more than 10/20 metres.

There is no shame in stopping on a climb, maybe stop for a drink then continue, cleaning a climb is all well and good but stopping on the way up, even for 30 seconds, can make the whole experience much better.

A lot of getting up the big climbs is about confidence, once you've done one, subsequent ups will be much easier, you'll get a better feel for the required gearing that you need and you'll not fear them.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
Jupestar
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Jupestar »

foxyrider wrote: 25 Nov 2022, 7:24pm Timmelsjoch
What a climb! I did this with a old school 39/25 low gear....

I was young and innocent at the time, and had no idea what I was doing... I barely ride that on my flat commute nowadays.
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geomannie
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by geomannie »

I read this article recently. For serious hill climbing an extreme lightweight build is the key.

https://road.cc/content/feature/weird-a ... kes-297013

This article focuses on one bike that comes in at 5.39kg

https://road.cc/content/feature/andrew- ... mod-297091

These articles probably aren't directly relevant to the OP but I found them interesting nonetheless.
geomannie
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Cugel
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Cugel »

geomannie wrote: 26 Nov 2022, 10:15am I read this article recently. For serious hill climbing an extreme lightweight build is the key.

https://road.cc/content/feature/weird-a ... kes-297013

This article focuses on one bike that comes in at 5.39kg

https://road.cc/content/feature/andrew- ... mod-297091

These articles probably aren't directly relevant to the OP but I found them interesting nonetheless.
A British hill climbing event is nothing like a long climb in mountainous terrain. The former is a very short race demanding extreme efforts for a short time up very steep courses, which makes the loss of a few grams on the bike more relevant - but still not the be-all and end-all, since the bike needs to be strong enough not to lose pedalling energy and to avoid a snap.

The efficiency of the bike at transmitting pedalling energy to the back tyre where it meets the road is what's important on long climbs. A couple of kilos weight loss from the bike is going to make far less difference than the efficiency of the bike and it's parts at transmitting pedalling forces to forward motion. Often such efficiency is gained by using a stronger or more resilient component than the lightest available, especially in the frame/forks and the wheels.

Weight loss in the cyclist can make a difference .... but not just because of the lower weight that has to be propelled up the hill. Weight loss or gain to an ideal body composition can have other beneficial effects on one's physiognomy, which can become more efficient at producing energy, especially over longer periods of effort, than if one is too heavy or too light for one's body-type. Mesomorph (thick-boned and large muscled) body types in particular can suffer badly if too much weight is lost, as that lost weight is going to be muscle weight as well as fat.

Extremely low-weight bike components are largely a marketing strategy that pleases accountants since it involves persuading the buyer that less (weight of materials used) is more ("better" but a great deal more expensive). Lower bike weight of a few grams only matters to top class racing cyclists, where small differences can translate to a 3cm advantage at the finish line in the sprint or 3 seconds faster up the hill.

**************
For large mesomorph cyclists, it's often the case that a relatively low cadence is more efficient than a fast spinning cadence. The muscles and sinews of a mesomorph can take more stress than those of skinny ectomorphs; and the energy losses of spinning large muscled legs like those of an Indurain is going to be proportionally more than the similar energy losses from spinning skinny pins like those of a Froome.

Personally I had an ideal climbing cadence of 74 when climbing long mountainous drags (measured when I raced, went on the long climbs of Mallorca training camps and had a computer that measured my cadence). I'm a mesomorph body type. Skinnier fellows preferred to spin faster. But I also knew bodybuilder-sized time trialists who, although sticking to flat courses, generally did their best times at 60rpm.

Someone will ask me to refer to "a study" supporting these observations from a long experience of cycling myself and with others. I haven't got any handy - but I know they exist. :-)

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
esasjl
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by esasjl »

It's very interesting reading the different approaches. I guess it means folk need to experiment to find out what works for them. I'm using a triple (48-36-24) with 10 speed cassette (11-40) for sealed roads and bridleways up to 25% gradient. I'm 60+, BMI 26 and not very fit.
LancsGirl
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by LancsGirl »

Cugel wrote: 26 Nov 2022, 12:48pm Weight loss in the cyclist can make a difference .... but not just because of the lower weight that has to be propelled up the hill. Weight loss or gain to an ideal body composition can have other beneficial effects on one's physiognomy, which can become more efficient at producing energy...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiognomy
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Cugel
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Cugel »

LancsGirl wrote: 26 Nov 2022, 11:20pm
Cugel wrote: 26 Nov 2022, 12:48pm Weight loss in the cyclist can make a difference .... but not just because of the lower weight that has to be propelled up the hill. Weight loss or gain to an ideal body composition can have other beneficial effects on one's physiognomy, which can become more efficient at producing energy...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiognomy
I award you a nice "caught out a Cugel" badge. Keep it highly polished for best effect. :-)

Perhaps you have the correct word for the concept: physical characteristics of a particular biological body structure?

Of course, one interpretation of this fine physi word might leave out the "indicates something about the human mental character traits" part to leave only "indicates data about the physical attributes of a particular body and their relative quantities and qualities".

Cugel
Last edited by Cugel on 27 Nov 2022, 4:50pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Nearholmer
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Nearholmer »

Perhaps you have the correct word for the concept: physical characteristics of a particular biological body structure?
Physique?
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Cugel wrote: 27 Nov 2022, 12:43pm
LancsGirl wrote: 26 Nov 2022, 11:20pm
Cugel wrote: 26 Nov 2022, 12:48pm Weight loss in the cyclist can make a difference .... but not just because of the lower weight that has to be propelled up the hill. Weight loss or gain to an ideal body composition can have other beneficial effects on one's physiognomy, which can become more efficient at producing energy...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiognomy
I award you a nice "caught out a Cugel" badge. Keep is highly polished for best effect. :-)

Perhaps you have the correct word for the concept: physical characteristics of a particular biological body structure?

Of course, one interpretation of this fine physi word might leave out the "indicates something about the human mental character traits" part to leave only "indicates data about the physical attributes of a particular body and their relative quantities and qualities".

Cugel
Physiology :wink:
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Cugel
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Cugel »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 27 Nov 2022, 3:15pm
Cugel wrote: 27 Nov 2022, 12:43pm
I award you a nice "caught out a Cugel" badge. Keep is highly polished for best effect. :-)

Perhaps you have the correct word for the concept: physical characteristics of a particular biological body structure?

Of course, one interpretation of this fine physi word might leave out the "indicates something about the human mental character traits" part to leave only "indicates data about the physical attributes of a particular body and their relative quantities and qualities".

Cugel
Physiology :wink:
Well ..... I be not convinced that "physiology" is what I mean in this discussion. Physiology seems to be about general physical processes rather than about specific body-types as defined by variations in human physiology of particular kinds. I mentioned "mesomorph" as what I understand is a term used to describe heavy muscled thick boned body types that also tend to have certain ratios of one body part size to another - part of a simple taxonomy of body types used to differentiate commonly-found body shapes with associated physiological variations. (The other body types in this taxonomy are "endomorph" and "ectomorph").

These body types also seem to exhibit various associated behavioural characteristics when performing the physical actions involved in various kinds of sport.

These body types, then, are more like physiognomy differentiations in that they define distinct body types that in turn tend to have certain different physical characteristics and behaviours. Nothing to do with character traits, in that older Victorian understanding of the word; but definitely to do with a theory that such different body types are more or less capable at performing various kinds of exercises or styles of the same exercise.

It's still a question as the whether the mesomorph, endomorph and ectomorph differentiations of body types are useful to sports scientists and the like. After all, these are fairly crude differentiations, with a remaining range and degree of different physical features possible within each type. Still, I've always found it informative in understanding how cyclists in a race are likely to perform via consideration of their body type.

It's very unusual, for example, to find a mesomorph who can climb as well as an ectomorph, all other things (such as degree of training, oxygen uptake and so forth) being equal. And my observations of all sorts of cyclists over the decades does seem to show an association between preferred (and most efficient) pedalling cadence with body type. Ectomorphs tend to do better when spinning whilst endomorphs can produce more power if they lower their cadence to something just above "grinding".

Cugel, rambling on.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
mattsccm
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by mattsccm »

Is the Op looking to set up for exteme hills or just some bog standard alpine stuff? You won't find 30km of 25% there. if it is the 25%+ stuff then he will need some lower gears and some stromg arms and legs. If not, unless heavily loaded (and why do that in the Alps?) very low gears are not needed. A couple of years ago I ventured to the French Alps and despite my club mates minimal advice I went really low. The normal 28 t rear was was replaced by a 32 and I chucked on a 28/42 MTB double chainset. What a waste. Stuff like Alp d'Huez, , Cold d Croix d Fer and the Glandon were done in the 42 ring. Just, I supose, we would have done as youngsters. True I wouldn't have had a 32 on the back then ! Of course I also missed out on big gears to let rip down hill with. As a cuddly 56 year old then I am hardly built for hills
LancsGirl
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by LancsGirl »

Cugel wrote: 27 Nov 2022, 12:43pm
LancsGirl wrote: 26 Nov 2022, 11:20pm
Cugel wrote: 26 Nov 2022, 12:48pm Weight loss in the cyclist can make a difference .... but not just because of the lower weight that has to be propelled up the hill. Weight loss or gain to an ideal body composition can have other beneficial effects on one's physiognomy, which can become more efficient at producing energy...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiognomy
I award you a nice "caught out a Cugel" badge. Keep it highly polished for best effect. :-)

Perhaps you have the correct word for the concept: physical characteristics of a particular biological body structure?

Of course, one interpretation of this fine physi word might leave out the "indicates something about the human mental character traits" part to leave only "indicates data about the physical attributes of a particular body and their relative quantities and qualities".

Cugel
You're welcome. I must admit to being rather taken aback. After all, you clearly have such a fine command and deep understanding of the English language, and such a stylish mode of expression. So it seemed odd that you would use a word in what was, at least to my dim comprehension, an incorrect way. But then, my perspicacity is not as great as yours, so I did consider the possibility that perhaps I had missed an insight which you were revealing.
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Jon in Sweden »

As a continuation of this thread, with (yet another!) change in plans...

In late June, after Vätternrundan, I've got a couple of free weeks for a major cycling tour. I've applied for a Skoda sponsored gravel bike epic, doing the whole length of Sweden (2350km) but I'm not hedging my bets on that. I am sure that they'll have hundreds of applicants for just three places.

So, I'm counting on doing 10-12 days in Norway in the fjords. Trondheim, heading south for 1500km or so.

Looking at my bike line up, the Mercian (the one that wobbled on me before Christmas but has been behaving since) seems like the best option with the 3x10 Ultegra groupset.

But, given that I'd be carrying at least 10-15kg of luggage with me (planning to put a bit of that on the front end to steady it), the 11-30 cassette on the back and the 30 chainring on the front isn't going to give me a sufficiently low ratio for 8-13km of 9-11% climbing. Well, not low enough that I could do multiple days of it!

Which MTB rear mechs could I switch the Ultegra one out for? 11-38 would be great, 11-40 even better. Are there chainset and front mech implications?

I'm really looking forward to this summer's cycling. I've been working hard to maintain (and actually slightly build) my fitness over winter, and I think this effort will allow me to undertake some incredible challenges this year.
Tinkerbell
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Tinkerbell »

Have you looked at the GRX chainset? Front with 46/30 and rear with 11 - 36 gives a very nice range

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... speed.html
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Setting up a bike for extreme hill climbing

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Tinkerbell wrote: 14 Jan 2023, 9:37pm Have you looked at the GRX chainset? Front with 46/30 and rear with 11 - 36 gives a very nice range

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... speed.html
I hadn't!

It's very interesting that it's also compatible with Tiagra 4700 (which I thought wasn't compatible with anything else). My Orbea is on 4700 Tiagra, and whilst I don't usually like disc brakes, I think that they'd be sensible when descending, fully loaded.

So perhaps I'll switch out the chainset, sprocket and rear mech to GRX and I should be able to climb pretty much anything.

Thanks for the heads up!
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