Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
Ayseven
Posts: 116
Joined: 31 Jul 2021, 4:15am

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by Ayseven »

I'd take the Trek. Overloading it? You have to climb with anything you've got anyways, so take the minimum on the lightest bike; that's my philosophy. It is impossible to overload anything with seat bag/handlebar bag combo. Panniers can certainly get a lot heavier, but then you end up taking stuff you never really need. I've never ridden with anybody with them that didn't wish they had more; always less.
jimlews
Posts: 1476
Joined: 11 Jun 2015, 8:36pm
Location: Not the end of the world.

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by jimlews »

foxyrider wrote: 26 Nov 2022, 7:47pm
Bice wrote: 25 Nov 2022, 8:09pm
foxyrider wrote: 25 Nov 2022, 7:35pm I've done some camping trips with a Giant SCR, not dissimilar to your Trek winter bike, except i was on 25c tyres. It might not be everyones choice but thats what i'd use, fit a decent rack and Robert's your mothers brother :D
But what about the lovely Diamant, which certainly flies along when light:

Image
But whats it like loaded when the frame twists and gives a soggy ride? There's a good reason that most bikes have diamond frames, yes you can ride almost anything anywhere but there will be a cost somewhere along the line.
The single *downtube* design actually resists twist quite well.
I wonder if you are thinking of the "twin lateral" design which most definitely does not resist twist.

The only improvement I would be tempted to make to the Diamant ( in an ideal world )
would be to have extra mid - stays brazed between the lower end of the top tube (where it meets the seat tube)
and the rear dropouts

http://www.hilarystone.com/images/sale% ... s-6645.jpg

*EDIT*. That should, of course, read top tube.
GideonReade
Posts: 410
Joined: 4 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by GideonReade »

My mum had a custom mixte built for her by Bernhard someone, in the late forties or fifties. As I recall or understand, no lugs available for the design, so it was all fillet brazed, 531 tubing. The design was like your Diamante, but with the extra mid stays you discuss as an improvement.

I think it day rode and toured a fair bit. Then did mother duties. I don't recall being on the back, but there was a child seat rusting in the garage with it.

Sometime in the 80s, in my youth I helped strip it down for a respray and rebuild. On examination, the two intermediate stays had cracked away from the seat tube. IIRC the joint there wasn't that heavily built.

Thinking about it, given the dropped seat tube runs straight into those mid stays, they will take the majority of the road shocks, I think. Without them there's a lot of scope for the seat tube flexing and absorbing shock.

If my analysis is correct (who knows?), such stays aren't just an add-on.

------------
Agreed about weight of luggage, I just got one of those bikepacking handlebar rolls, to carry winter jacket. It's thought provoking to consider its tiny weight (250g) compared to the touring barbags I've used in the past (1Kg). There's a lot of weight in most but not all rear racks, ditto panniers. There's lighter cookers than Trangias too, specially for one.
jimlews
Posts: 1476
Joined: 11 Jun 2015, 8:36pm
Location: Not the end of the world.

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by jimlews »

GideonReade wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 11:05am My mum had a custom mixte built for her by Bernhard someone, in the late forties or fifties. As I recall or understand, no lugs available for the design, so it was all fillet brazed, 531 tubing. The design was like your Diamante, but with the extra mid stays you discuss as an improvement.

I think it day rode and toured a fair bit. Then did mother duties. I don't recall being on the back, but there was a child seat rusting in the garage with it.

Sometime in the 80s, in my youth I helped strip it down for a respray and rebuild. On examination, the two intermediate stays had cracked away from the seat tube. IIRC the joint there wasn't that heavily built.

Thinking about it, given the dropped seat tube runs straight into those mid stays, they will take the majority of the road shocks, I think. Without them there's a lot of scope for the seat tube flexing and absorbing shock.

If my analysis is correct (who knows?), such stays aren't just an add on.
My suspicion would be that your mum's bike suffered from a "dry joint".
I once suffered a similar failure, but in my case it was a cantilever stud that came adrift. Very exciting!
The bike was made by a reputable builder and he was more than happy to repair and respray gratis.

FWIW. my thinking is that the mid stay design is best thought of as a small drop top tube design, with a braced, extended seat tube.
It also simplifies the rear brake cable run.
GideonReade
Posts: 410
Joined: 4 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by GideonReade »

Well, it would have had to be two dry joints, one for each stay. I suspect the brazed area was too small, thus overloaded. But the main point was the role of those stays, which (Jimlews) you paraphrase nicely, yes, leaving the upper stays "just" bracing the seat tube...
Bice
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by Bice »

Interesting discussion about the frame design.

On the Diamant, the top tube comes down at an angle that if continued it would line up with the drop-outs, which is good.

On the Carlton Courette the top tube(s) do indeed continue to them, and there's a weld.

I have almost certainly been wrong to say the Carlton sways about when loaded: it does because it has a light steel rack, which is more the cause than the frame. I have never used it with a decent rack, but I suspect it would be quite good, and fine when loaded.

That said, mixte frames are a bit flexy. The Diamant does not seem to be, but probably is as well.

Either way, both could cope with 12-14 kilos without any problem.

I have loaded the Carlton with loads of stuff - 15 bottles of wine in two Ortleib panniers most recently - and it is fine (though I would not risk that weight on that rack for a long tour).

The Diamant has quite a solid, alloy rack that weighs little, and does not move at all.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
GideonReade
Posts: 410
Joined: 4 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by GideonReade »

If you had drunk a couple of the bottles of wine first, that would've significantly reduced the weight, and been mucsh shaffererery, offisher!
jimlews
Posts: 1476
Joined: 11 Jun 2015, 8:36pm
Location: Not the end of the world.

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by jimlews »

I suppose the best way to decide which bike to take is to do a series of out and back fully laden rides
over mixed terrain on each bike in turn.
Could be done over successive weekends, or whenever you have a couple of days spare.
This would also be a good way to get 'bike fit' in preparation for your holiday.
willem jongman
Posts: 2750
Joined: 7 Jan 2008, 4:16pm

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by willem jongman »

Precisely. You already have the bikes, so you can try them out to check their stability when loaded. If I had to choose without trying, I would go for the Diamant because it is both quite light and allows for pretty wide tyres.
As for the luggage, Ortlieb panniers are pretty heavy and perhaps unnecessarily so, but they are what you have. I mostly use some Altura ARC 15 panniers that are just over 1000 grams for the two, and 33 litre. My light tent goes on top of the rack. I take my Trangia 27 for some real food. Enjoy.
Bice
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by Bice »

Image

Well, I chose this bike in the end, my Marin 1990s 26 inch steel triple MTB / tourer, and I am glad I did so: it took me the 1,441kms over 14 days down to Provence in May without any trouble of any kind.

I could not get anywhere near less than 12kgs of weight, which was my original intention, as I had to take a laptop and charger (2kgs) that I needed for work. Then I insisted on having a Trangia (800gms plus 1 litre alcohol a bruler), camping gear and other stuff. So it ended up more like 18kgs.

I gave up on my plan of riding a bike that was light enough to get to Provence and which I could also use when joining my cycle club down there, which was my original intention. We were all doing a week's road riding down there. But I decided I would try to hire a bike instead (see below).

This was the right decision.

On the day of departure (May 18), I made one good decision and one elementary mistake.

First, I jettisoned the Schwalbe City Jet light tyre on the front and replaced it with a Marathon Plus 37mm, which was what I also had on the back. I was worried about them being too heavy and wooden - a ridiculous consideration when loading 18kgs on a bike! I was reassured by the Marathons, especially as so much of my route was canal towpath and off-road. They also rolled really quite well, in fact.

The mistake I made was so basic: the first time I rode the fully laden bike was when I headed to the station to get to Portsmouth. I was aghast at the weight, and seriously wondered whether I could manage the journey. I begin thinking about heading to the Caen post office and sending my laptop and charger on to Provence. This was not necessary: you get used to the weight.

At Ouistreham I headed for the beach - Sword beach, where the British and Canadians landed in 1944 - and went for an early morning swim at 6am.

Then it was on to Caen and to the Loire down the Velo Francette, which uses old iron ore railway lines in Normandy and the river towpath along the Mayenne further south, and then to Saumur. Thereafter, the Loire a Velo until Nevers and on south.

I went down the lovely Dolce Via in the Ardeche (pictured above): 75kms of off-road down an idyllic valley along an old railway line. It comes out at Le Voulte du Rhone. It is a companion route to the Via Fluvia, which more or less does the same thing down a different valley further north.

I stopped at all the sites along the Loire - Angers, Saumur, Sache, Amboise, Sully, Briare, Sancerre - that I wanted to see, and experienced a huge amount of kindness from strangers, letting me camp on their lawns etc. It helps that I do make an effort to speak French, even if the result is a more or less grammatical 'Gaullish'.

When I got to Buis Les Baronnies I rode with the club a couple of times with my old Marin, which was a challenge, and then very reluctantly - because it was too posh - hired a KTM carbon fibre Di2, disc-braked machine, on which I went up Ventoux etc.

The cost was a bargain euro 128 for four days from Michel at Buis Velo.

I was blown away riding this bike. 'C'est pas tous le marketing' said Michel, of the fancy tech. So far I have resisted an expensive purchase, however.

[Note the plastic toe clips, which are so convenient and versatile that they must be due for a revival.]

Image
Last edited by Bice on 4 Aug 2023, 4:03pm, edited 1 time in total.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks for adding the outcome.

Sounds great.

Jonathan
User avatar
MrsHJ
Posts: 1822
Joined: 19 Aug 2010, 1:03pm
Location: Dartmouth, Devon.

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by MrsHJ »

Lovely tour description and nice photos. I’m looking forward to la dolce vita one day (but no intention of doing the ventoux again even on a fancy bike- I did it when super fit and lean and no wish to test whether it’s tougher when older, fatter and less fit!). I agree that you have to figure out what works for you packing weight and bike wise. Sounds like you made mostly good choices,

Not convinced by your toe clip conversion but whatever flots your boat! I’d have switched my spds onto the road bike.
simonhill
Posts: 5226
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 11:28am
Location: Essex

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by simonhill »

Cripes, back to the future. 26" MTB flat bar tourer doing the business.

Thanks for write up, very interesting. 100kms a day average with all that sightseeing is pretty good going.
Bice
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: Which bike to take on a cycle tour in France ... to then take part in club cycling jaunt

Post by Bice »

simonhill wrote: 5 Aug 2023, 8:39am Cripes, back to the future. 26" MTB flat bar tourer doing the business.

Thanks for write up, very interesting. 100kms a day average with all that sightseeing is pretty good going.
It was the right choice, I think. I could have used some strong touring 700mm wheels from my commuter and put them on the Diamant, but I am glad I didn't. The bike was carrying a lot, hammering over rough surfaces for long distances. I never thought I would break a spoke with the Sputnik wheels and 37mm Marathon tyres. (Spare spokes in the seat tube though.)

I really like the look of the Ruta de la Plata off-road, posted here: viewtopic.php?t=155934

I have an 11-speed carbon fibre Scott MTB 27.5 inch, which would be great on it. But this bike, which is so simple, would be a much surer bet. Only one of the club members really appreciated it, and he was just back from a ride down west Africa.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
Post Reply