Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

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Sweep
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

Post by Sweep »

horizon wrote: 28 Nov 2022, 2:12pm

PS Just to say that I agree it doesn't have to be an epic journey of exploration across the steppes of Russia: one night on the north Downs in the middle of winter really shakes up the season and gets rid of winter blues!
exactly my thoughts Horizon (have read some epic accounts of days and days across frozen wastes - sounds like misery to me - always suspect folks into those trips are working out some childhood trauma or a penance trip) - will be North Downs, Surrey Hills or maybe Bowland fells.
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

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Sweep wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 3:00pm have read some epic accounts of days and days across frozen wastes - sounds like misery to me - always suspect folks into those trips are working out some childhood trauma or a penance trip)
Actually, with the right kit and suitable weather it's the bee's knees... (here's my missus, ski touring in Norway)Image
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Sweep
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

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pjclinch wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 3:46pm
Sweep wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 3:00pm have read some epic accounts of days and days across frozen wastes - sounds like misery to me - always suspect folks into those trips are working out some childhood trauma or a penance trip)
Actually, with the right kit and suitable weather it's the bee's knees... (here's my missus, ski touring in Norway)Image
impressive pj - am a wuss compared to that
thanks for the info on bags.
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horizon
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

Post by horizon »

pjclinch wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 3:46pm
Actually, with the right kit and suitable weather it's the bee's knees... (here's my missus, ski touring in Norway)
Pete: do you have a photo of your rucksack? :wink: :lol:
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

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horizon wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 10:46am
pjclinch wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 3:46pm
Actually, with the right kit and suitable weather it's the bee's knees... (here's my missus, ski touring in Norway)
Pete: do you have a photo of your rucksack? :wink: :lol:
From the same trip:
Image
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horizon
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

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Not bad, not bad. I'm presuming that included mats, sleeping bags, tent, stove, lights, food etc etc. The good thing about cycling is that you can carry more stuff; the downside is that you also have to carry tools etc.

However the common factor for both modes might be two persons: not only can you make do with one set of whatever between you but each of you provides a heat source for the other, even just friends would do this in a small tent. I wonder (a) whether I am right on this and (b) if right, to what extent this really helps.

PS You also produce two sets of condensation . . .
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

pjclinch wrote: 28 Nov 2022, 10:04am Silk liners tend to be over-rated for their thermal effect. A liner will generally keep you warm to a similar degree as PJs made from the same thing, so unless it's pretty thick silk (which is available, but bag liners tend to be quite fine silk) it won't make a huge difference. Various synthetic and wool thermal liners are available. Most silk liners are primarily about keeping the bag clean rather than the occupant toasty.

Pete.
I have a silk liner and a synthetic one. I'm not sure whether the synthetic one is nylon or polyester or what (except that it's orange, which in itself is not IMO a good colour for something to sleep in!). I'm not convinced that either adds a huge amount of insulation, but whereas the synthetic one tends to feel cold on first getting and then gets clammy and sweaty during the night – it doesn't breathe much – the silk one tends to feel warmer against the skin and breathes reasonably well. It's also lighter and packs smaller. So from that pov, I'd recommend a silk liner over a synthetic one. Never tried a wool liner mind...
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

Post by Pebble »

for extreme stuff (many nights well below zero) you need to sleep in a plastic liner bag, it stops dampness migrating from your body into your bag, (I have never tried it but they tell me it works)

vapour barrier liners?
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

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Pebble wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 7:57am for extreme stuff (many nights well below zero) you need to sleep in a plastic liner bag, it stops dampness migrating from your body into your bag, (I have never tried it but they tell me it works)

vapour barrier liners?
Yup, VBLs are the things. Never been in the business of needing one, thankfully! As I understand it these are the things for polar expedition work and the like. I once saw a film of some incredibly stoic Russians skiing to the North Pole and the first thing they got to do on pitching camp was smash the balls of ice that had formed in their sleeping bags from the damp in them, so maybe they hadn't taken VBLs? Whole thing was somewhere on the wrong side of Type 2 Fun, whatever :(
Bmblbzzz wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 12:29am I have a silk liner and a synthetic one. I'm not sure whether the synthetic one is nylon or polyester or what (except that it's orange, which in itself is not IMO a good colour for something to sleep in!). I'm not convinced that either adds a huge amount of insulation, but whereas the synthetic one tends to feel cold on first getting and then gets clammy and sweaty during the night – it doesn't breathe much – the silk one tends to feel warmer against the skin and breathes reasonably well. It's also lighter and packs smaller. So from that pov, I'd recommend a silk liner over a synthetic one. Never tried a wool liner mind...
My usual Weapon of Choice is a JagBags silk one so clearly I'm on board with silk being a Good Thing, but I'd suggest sweeping all synthetic fabrics in to one pot is a bit, well, sweeping. There's a huge range of synthetic fabrics available and they differ markedly in their performance. Even if you limit yourself to just polyester (or polyamide/nylon, or whatever) you can vary between really very good and pretty ghastly. Just like synthetic base layers the proof of the pudding is in the trying.

As well as my usual silk liner I have a thick silk one that a pal brought back from Kathmandu (he took a cotton ME liner in to a local tailors and said "one of these in your thick silk please" and it was duly run up) that is nice for colder nights and a Pertex (very fine weave nylon, often used for sleeping bag inners/outers) one that I take on trips where I expect to get particularly dirty (it's much simpler to wash safely, including in the middle of nowhere, than the silk ones). It's not as nice as the silk ones but it certainly doesn't rate as unpleasant or clammy/sweaty.

I don't have, but have seen and have seen recommended, merino wool ones and fleece/pile ones for various degrees of warmth boost. Again, assume thermal contribution like PJs made of the same stuff.

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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

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horizon wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:24pm Not bad, not bad. I'm presuming that included mats, sleeping bags, tent, stove, lights, food etc etc. The good thing about cycling is that you can carry more stuff; the downside is that you also have to carry tools etc.
It was a hut to hut trip so no need for tent or stove. However, emergency sleeping bags and rather more in the way of warm clothing than I'd take cycling, and a waxing kit and ski/pole repair stuff. While Roos has her shovel on the outside mine is inside, along with avalanche probe and bothy bag, again stuff that's not really relevant cycling!
horizon wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:24pmHowever the common factor for both modes might be two persons: not only can you make do with one set of whatever between you but each of you provides a heat source for the other, even just friends would do this in a small tent. I wonder (a) whether I am right on this and (b) if right, to what extent this really helps.

PS You also produce two sets of condensation . . .
Judging from using a bothy bag (think a big bag in tent fly fabric which you pull over a huddle of 2 or more people and it's kept in place by them sitting on the lip) it can make a lot of difference. I was doing some winter skills training with my old Uni mountaineering club on one occasion and I had full winter mountaineering gear for Cairngorm snow and my charges had typical hillwalking kit. Come lunch time I got them in a bothy bag and stayed out myself as there wasn't room for us all and I had much better kit. After a bit they were all toasty thanks to one sheet of very thin nylon and communal heat and I was shivering despite full winter salopettes and a down jacket.

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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

pjclinch wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 9:11am
Bmblbzzz wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 12:29am I have a silk liner and a synthetic one. I'm not sure whether the synthetic one is nylon or polyester or what (except that it's orange, which in itself is not IMO a good colour for something to sleep in!). I'm not convinced that either adds a huge amount of insulation, but whereas the synthetic one tends to feel cold on first getting and then gets clammy and sweaty during the night – it doesn't breathe much – the silk one tends to feel warmer against the skin and breathes reasonably well. It's also lighter and packs smaller. So from that pov, I'd recommend a silk liner over a synthetic one. Never tried a wool liner mind...
My usual Weapon of Choice is a JagBags silk one so clearly I'm on board with silk being a Good Thing, but I'd suggest sweeping all synthetic fabrics in to one pot is a bit, well, sweeping. There's a huge range of synthetic fabrics available and they differ markedly in their performance. Even if you limit yourself to just polyester (or polyamide/nylon, or whatever) you can vary between really very good and pretty ghastly. Just like synthetic base layers the proof of the pudding is in the trying.
I'd agree that not all synthetics are alike and didn't mean to give that impression. I'd say the same for cotton too.
As well as my usual silk liner I have a thick silk one that a pal brought back from Kathmandu (he took a cotton ME liner in to a local tailors and said "one of these in your thick silk please" and it was duly run up) that is nice for colder nights
Sounds like a very good way to get one!
and a Pertex (very fine weave nylon, often used for sleeping bag inners/outers) one that I take on trips where I expect to get particularly dirty (it's much simpler to wash safely, including in the middle of nowhere, than the silk ones). It's not as nice as the silk ones but it certainly doesn't rate as unpleasant or clammy/sweaty.

I don't have, but have seen and have seen recommended, merino wool ones and fleece/pile ones for various degrees of warmth boost. Again, assume thermal contribution like PJs made of the same stuff.

Pete.
Pertex... A couple of decades ago I had a supposedly waterproof jacket made of pertex – it was just about showerproof but nice to wear. The fabric seems to have gone out of fashion now after having been all the rage way back in the '90s.
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

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Bmblbzzz wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 10:10am
Pertex... A couple of decades ago I had a supposedly waterproof jacket made of pertex – it was just about showerproof but nice to wear. The fabric seems to have gone out of fashion now after having been all the rage way back in the '90s.
Pertex was originally a fabric but became a brand with various different flavours. First dreamed up by Hamish Hamilton (the man who designed the classic Force 10 and Buffalo Mountain Shirt) and developed by Perseverance Mills (hence "Pertex") the brand is now owned by a Japanse group, https://pertex.com/ is the brand website.

One of these flavours, Pertex Shield, is formally waterproof/breathable fabric and used in quite a few jackets/trousers, typically at the light end of the market (I have a pair of Rab overtrousers in Pertex Shield).

But for the most part Pertex nylons are windproof only, and can be made showerproof with a DWR coating. It's still very common in outdoorsy stuff though not to the degree that people shout about it so much as a bullet-point Feature. Pertex Quantum is the current name for what was originally just called "Pertex". What's mainly changed is that since it works very well it's become mainstream and is no longer the only game in town if you want a fine, silky nylon.

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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

Post by horizon »

pjclinch wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 10:34am Pertex Quantum is the current name for what was originally just called "Pertex". What's mainly changed is that since it works very well it's become mainstream

Pete.
Pertex Quantum is the fabric that Rab use for their sleeping bag outers.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

Post by boblo »

Pertex pullovers are brill for lightweight/packable windproofs. Until Castelli produced their Gabba/Perfetto, I wore one very regularly in winter on the bikes and still always take one into the hills. On the bikes, I still take an additional layer in winter but it's Shakedry which is another kettle of fish altogether being almost as light as Pertex but properly waterproof and still breathable.

I also have a fibre pile sleeping bag liner for really really cold nights, a Mountain Equipment Shearwater. I initially bought it as a lightweight summer bag but it was a bit chilly for that. It's quite bulky compared to a modern superlight 2 season down bag so doesn't get any use as I'm not now camping when I'll need to extend the range of my bags.
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Re: Doubling up sleeping bags for winter?

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boblo wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 11:01am Pertex pullovers are brill for lightweight/packable windproofs. Until Castelli produced their Gabba/Perfetto, I wore one very regularly in winter on the bikes and still always take one into the hills. On the bikes, I still take an additional layer in winter but it's Shakedry which is another kettle of fish altogether being almost as light as Pertex but properly waterproof and still breathable.
Nurture your Shakedry, Gore are discontinuing it! (see https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/shaked ... d-by-gore/)
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