Navigation advice

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
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WEBH
Posts: 104
Joined: 1 Jul 2022, 5:43pm

Navigation advice

Post by WEBH »

Hi everyone, sorry first of all to raise another navigation type question, but I couldn't see exactly what I need from previous posts. I'm planning a long tour next year, always said I'd cycle to Istanbul when I retired and now I have!
I'm happy with the bike, with camping, with everything really - apart from route finding. I've bought the three suitable cicerone guides, with a potential departure from the rivers route through Bulgaria, but they suggest maps as backup.
I am torn between trying to do 'old school ' and buy road atlases as I go, or joining the modern world and getting a GPS, maybe Garmin 530 or the like. My question is, how easy is it to use this via smartphone only? I do not possess a computer, and though I've used them at work am not exactly technically minded. From those with experience, is it easy enough for a technical buffoon to do this or am I wasting my money/your time? Bear in mind that phrases like 'import gpx file' are currently a foreign language to me, so is it the sort of thing one can do each night before the next day via WiFi? Or does the item contain enough maps as it comes to see me through? I've seen people saying that the Garmin can do the route standalone, but any (simple!) advice on this would be very welcome.
Thanks all in advance.
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MrsHJ
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010, 1:03pm
Location: Dartmouth, Devon.

Re: Navigation advice

Post by MrsHJ »

Hmmm, I’m not entirely sure what the best will be for you but firstly I don’t get on with garmin very well (I have two touring ones lurking on the shelf that I ignore). I use my smart phone only these days and on that I use cycle.travel (trialling the app- be warned it doesn’t include Turkey) and google maps. People also use ride with gps and komoot.

Having said that for Turkey you’re starting to stray beyond some of the easier European mapping. I take back up maps but in all honesty I never use them on well established routes in Western Europe. They might be more use further afield. For the EV 6 section of your route though you’ll be using pretty well established paths. The only question is when you drop down to Istanbul. Some people complete EV6 first, others cut down before getting to Romania,

Ox don’t forget your 90 days limit for schengen countries but that shouldn’t be an issue in 2023 unless you really go off piste as the balkans have largely not joined yet. I reckon EV6 end to end would take me about 60 days- it’s on my maybe list. Great retirement trip plan!

When are you going to do it. If I do ev6 in thinking about either mid April to mid June or mid august to mid October.
Last edited by MrsHJ on 30 Nov 2022, 7:52am, edited 2 times in total.
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by Psamathe »

1. Don't think of yourself as a technical buffoon. We all know different amounts of different things. Just because you are not "all techy" likely means you are knowlegable in loads of other interesting stuff.

2. You are using a computer to browse and post on this website.

3. Some like using phones, others dedicated cycling GPSs. There is no right answer.

4. I like using turn by turn directions from a "box" because it allows me to spend my time looking around at scenery, wildlife, the box doing mundane stuff like telling me when to turn next. Lighter and more robust than paper maps.

5. I tried a phone but immediately hit battery life and functionality issues so got a dedicated cycling GPS - for me it was the right choice but there is no "right" answer.

6. Use your web browser (what you posted the message here using) and go to https://cycle.travel try entering e.g. your home town (from) then somewhere interesting e.g. 30 miles away. It will create and show a route. It has a button "GPS" and if you use a Garmin it can send that route directly to your Garmin GPS. 1st time may not go smoothly. 2nd attempt likely work better. Ask questions here. 3rd time go easier, etc. until you'll be telling us how to use it.

7. There is nothing magic about using these things. Some people grasp it quickly, others take longer (and it does not reflect on your abilities). Winter is a great time to experiment, get it wrong, ask questions, try again, etc. and you will get there. The https://cycle.travel is free, no registration, just play around and you'll discover loads of things. You can't hurt anything experimenting and trying.

8. Have a play with cycle.travel before spending money on navigation device. There are several different sites doing similar but many regard cycle.travel as the best and there are plenty of people on this forum who use it a lot and can help answering questions.

Ian
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by pete75 »

A smartphone and a dedicated mapping unit are both computers. The phone is much more powerful though and will run a variety of different nav apps, mostly free, whereas a dedicated unit will only run what is supplied by it's manufacturer. Phones also cost less, can have a longer battery life and be more weatherproof and robust.
I briefly tried a Garmin Edge Explore before returning it for a refund. It was so damned slow. Calculating a 100 mile route was sloth like. In contrast my mobile phone would calculate the same route in a couple of seconds - three routes actually, suggested, easiest and shortest.

.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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andrew_s
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Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 9:29pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Navigation advice

Post by andrew_s »

pete75 wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 10:43pmPhones also cost less, can have a longer battery life and be more weatherproof and robust.
Most people find that the opposite is the case
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Tigerbiten
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Joined: 29 Jun 2009, 6:49am

Re: Navigation advice

Post by Tigerbiten »

A lot will come down to power usage and how much hassle do you want to and/or are willing to go through to recharge stuff.
Satnavs tend to be less power hungry than phones.
A satnav can be run off a hub dynamo but a phone may have to be run off a power brick while a second one is recharged off a hub dynamo.
A small solar panel can be useful if you do short days or have long lunch breaks, not so much if your in the saddle most of the day.
I like my Garmin Etrex simply because it runs off a couple of AA which can be got anywhere if that's my only option for power.

I tend to use a mix of old and new when touring.
I find somewhere with power and internet so I can go online and finalize the next 4-5 days route.
Once the route is fixed I then draw it out on a paper map page.
I do it that way because large scale paper maps don't show hills and I've been caught out before now.
Each night I then plot the route by hand into my Etrex so it can be followed the next day.

Luck ........... :D
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MrsHJ
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010, 1:03pm
Location: Dartmouth, Devon.

Re: Navigation advice

Post by MrsHJ »

On the cicerone guides they are good for information as I’m sure you’ve found but personally I find the turn by turn info pretty redundant (it may be good for others). The maps aren’t great and the books aren’t spiral bound so are no use for a map holder. I tend to get cicerone books on kindle where I can read it in my phone or kindle for info- less to carry.

You can pick up the bikeline guides (spiral bound and better maps) though for EV6 and they will map you from St Nazaire/the Atlantic to Constanta. It doesn’t help with the Istanbul leg but sometimes breaking a problem down is useful. They have excellent physical maps so they might help your debate on whether a physical map will be useful. They fit in a map holder on my bar bag. There are 6 or 7 for EV6 and the Danube ones are published in German and English. You probably don’t need them for the earlier legs but they may give you some comfort. I’ve been thinking about EV6 and if I do it I’ll definitely get them for Budapest onwards.

Make sure you’re getting the most up to date print if you get them- the mapping I found really useful when I was in Italy on EV8/the Po this year with unreliable route signage (I had to use the German version as there isn’t an English one and it was still useful even though I didn’t speak the language and therefore missed a critical bit of information about how bad the western end of the route was!). It shows the quality of the roads as well as where they run. Photo below illustrates the bikeline guide in action on a ropey slow gravel section of EV8. If I’d used it a bit more at the planning stage I’d have avoided those dashed gravel sections on the north bank and tried the alternative but better quality recommendations on the south bank.

Link here for some of them- the earlier sections cover the Loire to the beginning of the Danube route so they cover the whole? route (not sure about the link from Basel to the beginning of the Danube actually-might be in the Rhine guide) but aren’t in the numbering. Make sure you get the English editions. https://www.stanfords.co.uk/AdvancedSea ... ne+Danube+
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/385 ... 1OLE&psc=1
https://www.esterbauer.com/bikeline/eur ... reich-ost/
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Last edited by MrsHJ on 30 Nov 2022, 7:50am, edited 6 times in total.
Sparky56
Posts: 175
Joined: 26 Nov 2022, 6:27am

Re: Navigation advice

Post by Sparky56 »

It’s so much easier with a ‘bike computer’ than with maps. I’ve a wahoo elmnt bolt that links with the smartphone (e.g. for uploading routes, downloading to strava etc). Doesn’t need a separate computer. Links via blue tooth.

On my phone I have the various cycling apps (Ridewith GPS subscription, Komoot) plus also the Ordnance Survey app for UK and when outside the UK I use iPhigenie that is a mapping app that has open cycle map, various other maps, plus you can include the national mapping from other countries at a reasonable cost (e.g. France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland). That way I can double check where I am).

The bolt lasts all day and longer. Quick to recharge. Took me a while to get used to so definitely get it before hand and learn it before the trip.

(I’ve no brand loyalty, haven’t tried other devices or compared)
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by pete75 »

andrew_s wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 12:29am
pete75 wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 10:43pmPhones also cost less, can have a longer battery life and be more weatherproof and robust.
Most people find that the opposite is the case
Not if they get the right phone. Something like a Doogee S86 has IP68 and IP69K protection. They quote both as one relates to how it keeps water out when immersed and the other for high pressure jets. They'll survive being dropped onto concrete from at least 5 feet and being submerged in salt water for a few hours *. It has an 8500 mAh battery which will play video for 36 hours when tested in reviews. Running Android 11 on a reasonably powerful Helio p60 with 8gig of RAM they perform reasonably well. I paid £122 for mine on Aliexpress though Amazon charge twice that.
Given the difference in price, power, protection, screen size, software availability bewteen an S86 and a Garmin product costing over twice as much, it's worth buying just as a navigation device even if you do have another phone. That's why I bought one, although my normal Xiaomi phone will keep the screen on using a Nav app for over 8 hours. My dynamo front light has USB output to charge a phone if needs be too.

* A friend dropped his off my boat. There was about 6 feet of water on the mooring at the time. A couple of hours later when the tide had dropped sufficiently to see it, we fished it out with the boat hook. It had no ill effects and is still going strong 4 months later.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by Jdsk »

WEBH wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 8:12pm Hi everyone, sorry first of all to raise another navigation type question, but I couldn't see exactly what I need from previous posts. I'm planning a long tour next year, always said I'd cycle to Istanbul when I retired and now I have!
I'm happy with the bike, with camping, with everything really - apart from route finding. I've bought the three suitable cicerone guides, with a potential departure from the rivers route through Bulgaria, but they suggest maps as backup.
I am torn between trying to do 'old school ' and buy road atlases as I go, or joining the modern world and getting a GPS, maybe Garmin 530 or the like. My question is, how easy is it to use this via smartphone only? I do not possess a computer, and though I've used them at work am not exactly technically minded. From those with experience, is it easy enough for a technical buffoon to do this or am I wasting my money/your time? Bear in mind that phrases like 'import gpx file' are currently a foreign language to me, so is it the sort of thing one can do each night before the next day via WiFi? Or does the item contain enough maps as it comes to see me through? I've seen people saying that the Garmin can do the route standalone, but any (simple!) advice on this would be very welcome.
I'd break this down into several different questions.

1 Do you intend to decide the route before you go or similar? That could be DIY or using other people's routes.

2 What sort of support for navigation do you want when you're on the road? Moving maps, turn by turn notification... ?

3 Would a smart 'phone be suitable for your needs? Or would a dedicated navigation computer be better? That decision needs to include cost, battery life, screen size and quality, protection from the elements and risk of it falling off as well as how good either would be at displaying or finding routes.

4 Would you like to have paper maps with you anyway, even if you're not using them all the time for navigating on the road?

There's lots of really helpful people here who can help you with technical stuff such as importing routes once you've decided the big issues.

Jonathan

PS: For most touring I use turn-by-turn navigating on a satnav device. I load my routes into that before setting off, most often from other people's published routes. Currently that's a Garmin Edge 1000. I chose that because it has all the maps that I need preloaded so that I don't suddenly need network access to get them. The screen is big enough for me to use without glasses. The biggest weakness is the battery life but the newer models are much better. It's sometimes used to generate its own routes and it's OK for that, but see above. I don't take any paper maps with me but my wife likes to have a map of eg France or Germany. Guide books and maps etc are loaded onto both Kindles and both smart 'phones.
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MrsHJ
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Location: Dartmouth, Devon.

Re: Navigation advice

Post by MrsHJ »

So roughly half of us like smartphones and half like garmin or similar.

Do a long weekend away on tour and test both to see what you like? Someone can probably lend you a garmin depending on where you are based.

The other thing that the posts have reminded me of is that whatever equipment you use and wherever you stay you need a charging plan. Obviously you could to stay totally away from electronics but these days most tourers have a phone as a minimum.
Last edited by MrsHJ on 30 Nov 2022, 12:51pm, edited 2 times in total.
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by Psamathe »

andrew_s wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 12:29am
pete75 wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 10:43pmPhones also cost less, can have a longer battery life and be more weatherproof and robust.
Most people find that the opposite is the case
Certainly my experience. My Garmin seems to run ages without being charged. When I first got it charged it up and after 25 hrs use it was still above 50%.

Ian
st599_uk
Posts: 1091
Joined: 4 Nov 2018, 8:59pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by st599_uk »

MrsHJ wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 9:10pm Ox don’t forget your 90 days limit for schengen countries but that shouldn’t be an issue in 2023 unless you really go off piste as the balkans have largely not joined yet.
The EU vote on Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria joining Schengen is on the 8th December. The recent reports show they have the prerequisites completed, so could be part of Schengen early in 2023. So you'll need to be careful not to get an overstay.

PS the country name is now Türkiye - they dropped the English version a while back. So if you're hunting for online maps, use that name - Open Cycle Map is available, so hopefully someone has extracted it for use on a Garmin or similar.
A novice learning...
“the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
WEBH
Posts: 104
Joined: 1 Jul 2022, 5:43pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by WEBH »

Hmmm, I’m not entirely sure what the best will be for you but firstly I don’t get on with garmin very well (I have two touring ones lurking on the shelf that I ignore). I use my smart phone only these days and on that I use cycle.travel (trialling the app- be warned it doesn’t include Turkey) and google maps. People also use ride with gps and komoot.


Ox don’t forget your 90 days limit for schengen countries but that shouldn’t be an issue in 2023 unless you really go off piste as the balkans have largely not joined yet. I reckon EV6 end to end would take me about 60 days- it’s on my maybe list. Great retirement trip plan!

When are you going to do it. If I do ev6 in thinking about either mid April to mid June or mid august to mid October.

Thanks MrsHJ some good points there, I am aiming to leave April, ferry to Holland and the 'Rhine route'. I think after a few days settling in I will be happier!
WEBH
Posts: 104
Joined: 1 Jul 2022, 5:43pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by WEBH »

As if proof were needed! I'll write my reply again!!
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