Navigation advice

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
PH
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Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
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Re: Navigation advice

Post by PH »

WEBH wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 8:21pm Loved the komoot turn by turn voice directions, the only issue was the phone battery, which was down to 20% by the end. It's a newish model which is normally ok, so I guess I am heading for a Garmin; I'm also not sure about data usage everywhere on the phone, talkmobile are a bit cagey about where they cover, certainly not turkiye though..
I have a foot in both phone and Garmin camps, both work fine, it's mostly about finding which suits you and putting the time into getting familiar with it. I use OsmAnd on the phone and Garmin maps on the Garmin, I'm pretty sure they both use the same underlying mapping. I find the Garmin easier to read in some circumstances, particularly bright sunshine, the phone's touch screen can also get confused by being rained on. I also prefer the size of the Garmin though I could get a smaller phone. The phone's size does IMO make it easier to route plan on the fly, though I do most of my planning on a PC and download to the Garmin, plus for a big trip also to the phone as a back-up. For short urban trips, through a city centre, find the railway station/supermarket/campsite/bikes shop... I use Google Maps and audio via bone conduction headphones. I'd find that irritating all day, I even have the Garmin beeps off, but for a dense area it's easier to follow the audio than the screen. Google is also very fast at recalculating, so get a junction wrong and it'll soon tell you if there's an alternative route or you need to make a U-turn.
I don't find battery usage an issue with either, I use a small powerbank to top both up, that will last me around three days with the phone or five with the Garmin, before needing a full re-charge, though I prefer to keep that topped up whenever I have the opportunity.
On the point above about data usage, OsmAnd doesn't use any, the maps are downloaded and the positioning is via the same GPS as a Garmin would use. I know that's the case for following a route, I'm not sure about planning. Google maps uses data, not a huge amount and even that might be avoidable, I haven't looked. I don't know about Komoot or any other apps.
If you go with a phone, I'd thoroughly recommend a Quad Lock mount, they're not cheap but having tried several others they are IMO as good as it gets, the Poncho cover takes care of waterproofing.
The above is based on my experience with a Garmin Touring (Though it's just been replaced with an Explore 2) and an Android phone.
st599_uk
Posts: 1091
Joined: 4 Nov 2018, 8:59pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by st599_uk »

PH wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 11:33am I'm pretty sure they both use the same underlying mapping.

Google is also very fast at recalculating, so get a junction wrong and it'll soon tell you if there's an alternative route or you need to make a U-turn.
OsmAnd uses Open Street Map and its derivatives. For Garmin, you can download all of Europe for free from: https://www.openfietsmap.nl/downloads/europe

If that doesn't cover Türkiye, then if the OP has a techy relative, the full instructions for downloading any area of Open Street Map and creating a Garmin GPS file are on that site. (The issue being that OSM is user generated, so may not be as rigorous in its coverage as it is in the UK and EU)

Google doesn't do cycle routing for the last few countries of the OP's route.
A novice learning...
“the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
PM999
Posts: 102
Joined: 6 Sep 2016, 11:56am

Re: Navigation advice

Post by PM999 »

Garmin's own routeable maps of Europe include Turkey. I've just sparked up my venerable old Edge Touring & the attached pic is of Ankara. It seems to include all the POI stuff - restaurants, hotels etc. per the icons visible.
IMG_20221202_163815.jpg
ANTONISH
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Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Navigation advice

Post by ANTONISH »

rareposter wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 11:10am
st599_uk wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 11:04am Still - would be nice for an option to say supply your own maps to save the cost.
The coding for the device to cope with any random format of imported maps would be a nightmare plus I'm willing to bet the majority of people buying a GPS want it with maps in the first place - that's the reason for buying a satnav!

Having the capacity to upload further maps or update the existing ones, I get. But buying a device from new, you want it with at the very least a decent basemap of your region.
when I bought my etrex 30 it came with a UK TOPO map already loaded. I'm willng to concede that it is not as good as OS but I've been using it for several years on audax rides and UK touring without problems.
Any map will eventually go out of date of course.
I've also downloaded "fietsmap" for Spain, Austria and France (made a donation for those but it's free if you don't want to contribute).
The various maps come up on a list on the device - it's not too complicated. You'll need the alternative maps on an SDcard which plugs into an internal socket.
The etrex took me a bit of getting used to. I relied on a series of articles published on the AUK forum which may be accessible to the public (not sure)
I'm 81 and not particularly tech savvy.
PM999
Posts: 102
Joined: 6 Sep 2016, 11:56am

Re: Navigation advice

Post by PM999 »

I can't speak for an etrex, but if you have an Edge unit with installed cycle maps of the territory where purchased ("Europe" for me), there are no cost lifetime updates. I bought my Edge Touring in April 2017 and am currently on "Routable Cycle Map Europe 2021.20". Updates are via Garmin Express and take some time.

Edit: I've just checked Garmin's website & the current Europe map is 2022.10. Plugging my Edge into Garmin Express, that's not on offer to me. It seems it's not lifetime updates, but limited. I seem to have got about 4 years.

It's either Openfietsmap or a piggy bank check for that shiny Edge 1040 .......
Ayseven
Posts: 116
Joined: 31 Jul 2021, 4:15am

Re: Navigation advice

Post by Ayseven »

I wonder if there has been a mistake at Garmin. Did you phone them about the map situation? I have the Openfiefstat map for the UK but haven't been yet, so no idea if it works or not. Garmin said they had no problem with me having it, too.
ANTONISH
Posts: 2955
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Navigation advice

Post by ANTONISH »

Ayseven wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 1:19am I wonder if there has been a mistake at Garmin. Did you phone them about the map situation? I have the Openfiefstat map for the UK but haven't been yet, so no idea if it works or not. Garmin said they had no problem with me having it, too.
If you load Garmin "Basecamp" on your computer (free) by plugging your garmin device into your computer it's possible to view whatever maps you have loaded on it.
Basecamp is a bit clunky but it has a basic global map on which can be overlaid any map you have on your device.

I'm not sure but I think you can plug the SD card into your computer to display it on basecamp (I may be wrong about that) but any map I've loaded on the etrex can be displayed.
ANTONISH
Posts: 2955
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Navigation advice

Post by ANTONISH »

I've just looked at the aukweb.net site - make sure you have their site and not someone trying to get you to download something.
It's possible to reach the resources page and uder GPS you can find Francis Cooke's series of articles.
I found them very useful.
WEBH
Posts: 104
Joined: 1 Jul 2022, 5:43pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by WEBH »

Thanks all for the various inputs, all thoughts are welcome. My original question has been well answered, it's going to be a Garmin, will decide which one after agonising over a decision as I usually do. My local bike shop has various devices so I'll probably start there.
I like the sound of "fietsmap" but don't have a computer, so the decision will have to bear this in mind, with the phone's 'computing power' so to speak. The Etrex looks good, I'm sure this was what a chap I met walking the Cape wrath trail had, only needed it once but it was extremely handy in a pinch! So this could have future walking use as well, I'm usually ok with maps but nice to have everything covered.
I'm sure I'll be back on here with questions, equally I'm sure the forum will be able to provide the answers!
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by Jdsk »

WEBH wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 3:26pm ...
My original question has been well answered, it's going to be a Garmin, will decide which one after agonising over a decision as I usually do. My local bike shop has various devices so I'll probably start there.
...
Thanks for the update on your plans.

I'd now look (!) at what screen size and quality you need, and at purchase price.

It's very helpful to have a battery that lasts longer than a day's riding. That's the greatest weakness of my Edge 1000, and sometimes it needs a top-up from a USB battery pack. But the newer models are better.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by Jdsk »

WEBH wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 3:26pm ...
I like the sound of "fietsmap" but don't have a computer, so the decision will have to bear this in mind, with the phone's 'computing power' so to speak.
...
My approach is to have all of the routes loaded before setting off on tour. Do you have access to someone else's computer where you could do that?

What sort of 'phone is that?

Thanks

Jonathan
ANTONISH
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Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Navigation advice

Post by ANTONISH »

Jdsk wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 3:32pm
WEBH wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 3:26pm ...
I like the sound of "fietsmap" but don't have a computer, so the decision will have to bear this in mind, with the phone's 'computing power' so to speak.
...
My approach is to have all of the routes loaded before setting off on tour. Do you have access to someone else's computer where you could do that?

What sort of 'phone is that?

Thanks

Jonathan
A lot of public libraries have computers available - I don't know how long you would get - from what I remember of fietsmap it can take a while.
st599_uk
Posts: 1091
Joined: 4 Nov 2018, 8:59pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by st599_uk »

PM999 wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 5:04pm Garmin's own routeable maps of Europe include Turkey. I've just sparked up my venerable old Edge Touring & the attached pic is of Ankara. It seems to include all the POI stuff - restaurants, hotels etc. per the icons visible.

IMG_20221202_163815.jpg
My Garmin has for the European part of Turkiye, but not the Asian par
A novice learning...
“the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by Jdsk »

ANTONISH wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 6:00pmA lot of public libraries have computers available - I don't know how long you would get - from what I remember of fietsmap it can take a while.
Great suggestion. And they're warm!

But I don't know if they'd allow wired connections to the device...

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Navigation advice

Post by Psamathe »

WEBH wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 3:26pm Thanks all for the various inputs, all thoughts are welcome. My original question has been well answered, it's going to be a Garmin, will decide which one after agonising over a decision as I usually do. My local bike shop has various devices so I'll probably start there. ...
Some Garmins can do on-device route creation (as in on the GPS, no internet needed).

When I tour I create tomorrows route each evening - no master plan, just decide evening before.

I switched to a Garmin half way through a 2 month cycle tour ('cos my Wahoo was such a disaster it was no longer even helping me navigate). So mid-tour I stopped at a large outdoor specialist shop in Belgium and purchased my 1st Garmin. With limited internet and electricity, rather than setup online stuff and work out how it all operated, instead I use the Garmin to create routes each evening. On GPS set start at "Current location" and set destination and it creates a quite reasonable cycle route. Reasonable number of options like avoid ferries and avoid tolls, etc. Routes were not as perfect as cycle.travel but I was happy for the remaining month of the tour, no problems with any of the routes.

If such a feature might be useful for you, check which Garmin's have it (not all do). It is definitely "on-device" and no internet, no Wi-Fi, no phone connection, no phone apps. Everything on the Garmin device using the maps it has stored on device.

I strongly suspect that such on-device routing might also be needed for off-course route adjustments. e.g. when I'm following a route (either created on-device or downloaded from e.g. cycle.travel), should I come to a road closed to just divert from route the Garmin recalculates. Initially it might say "turn-round" for a bit but then it will find another alternative route and start navigating you on the new route (either taking you back to your original route or to destination, depending on how you divert and how far to destination. This is automatic and on my Garmin you have a number of options to control what the device does.

Ian
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