Replace head tube?

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Psamathe
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by Psamathe »

I don't have the knowl;edge or experience to comment on the repair or repairability of the fault.

But when I pay for something new (either off the shelf or custom made) I expect it to be right not return for re-working. In this case whoever made the frame didn't spot the fault (or thought they'd get away with it). You spotted it. What else might be wrong that you didn't spot?

If it were me I'd be going for a refund and they looking elsewhere. What level of QA does this builder have?

Ian
mig
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by mig »

this maker doesn't give me a good 'feeling.'

send out an (unchecked?) frame with a fault, let you discover it for yourself, repair it but ask if you want to go further.

if you say 'no' it's okay like that is now the responsibility your own?

they seem to be passing onus back to you. i'd want the expert to be taking repsonsibility for the issue and doing the yards to 100% guarantee a full, proper repair.
thirdcrank
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by thirdcrank »

Commiserations from me. You shell out for a nice bike and then end up worrying whenever you ride it. The problem is under your nose and hard to live with, whichever way it's resolved
slowster
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by slowster »

mig wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 12:48pm this maker doesn't give me a good 'feeling.'

send out an (unchecked?) frame with a fault, let you discover it for yourself, repair it but ask if you want to go further.

if you say 'no' it's okay like that is now the responsibility your own?

they seem to be passing onus back to you. i'd want the expert to be taking repsonsibility for the issue and doing the yards to 100% guarantee a full, proper repair.
I agree. The OP has had the good grace not to name the framebuilder, but I believe it is one of the names that I suggested in one of his previous threads.

Given his/their reputation, I am a bit surprised by how they have dealt with this. I would have expected him/them to decide that it was simply not good enough, and to want to fix it properly as a matter of professional pride, rather than giving the OP a choice of whether he/they do so.
Jupestar
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by Jupestar »

First thing I would do is ask for my money back. Once that was agreed. I might consider what the repaired frame was worth to me and make an offer for it.

The point being i'm no longer buying a new bespoke frame, i'm buying second goods damaged in the manufacturing process.
rareposter
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by rareposter »

mig wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 11:52am one of the reasons i bought a few hand built frames back in the day was to avoid this very sort of thing. ie valuing the attention to detail that the maker should apply to the frame.
That's one of the reasons I would avoid custom build due to the lack of independent quality control and potential future issues with warranty/after-sales if the builder went out if business for any reason (inc stuff like retiring or dying...)

That's not a slur on any independent builder - many do fantastic and innovative work - but you do sort of accept that while you're getting a true one-off, you're also taking on a lot more risk.

I get that for niche builds you're kind of limited to that sort of market and there's an argument that any builder could probably fix it but in this case I'd be calling at the very least for a whole new headtube.
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SimonCelsa
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by SimonCelsa »

Imagine yourself as the bespoke frame builder, who has recently supplied a finished frame to a customer.

How would you react if one of your frames was returned due to faulty workmanship.

I would be quite embarrassed to say the least, and do my utmost to ensure proper reparation..........not offer a bodge repair which even to an untrained eye looks a bit dodgy.

Others may act differently. It's your money, your call, go with your initial gut feeling.
hemo
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by hemo »

It isn't what you wanted or expected to turn out like. I say no more.
Barrowman
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by Barrowman »

I think if it was me I would be after a replacement . It's brand new and should be 100% fit for purpose.
It was clearly problematic from the outset otherwise you wouldn't have realised something was amiss.
I assume it wasn't cheap ?
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sussex cyclist
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by sussex cyclist »

We're in discussions.
rareposter wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 6:53pm I get that for niche builds you're kind of limited to that sort of market
I definitely painted myself into a niche with singlespeed!
slowster
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by slowster »

As I said above, you have had the good grace not to name the builder, but I will. It is Woodrup*. It was I who suggested them on your previous thread, and I feel responsible for doing so, especially given your previous experience of very poor customer service from Enigma over their failure to honour their guarantee for your titanium frame.

* viewtopic.php?p=1715598#p1715598

I suggested Woodrup precisely because they, or more specifically their framebuilder, Kevin Sayles, was the framebuilder I myself had settled upon to buy a custom frame from. My first choice is Dave Yates, but I think he is all but retired now and possibly only doing his framebuilding courses.

On a horizontal top tubed frame lugless is a personal aesthetic choice. It has never much interested me, and so I was not fully aware of the potential problems with fillet brazed head and seat tubes until I dug out my copy of Tony Oliver's book. That book was published over 30 years ago, and it is very clear that the risk of the head tube distorting when using fillet brazing is something that all framebuilders should be well aware of. If a framebuilder is not going to source and use thicker walled head tubes like Tony Oliver did, or use some other techniques to control the risk of tube distortion, then it appears that it will be inevitable that a percentage of frames will turn out like the OP's.

What matters when something like this happens is how the business deals with it. Mistakes can never be completely prevented, and it is handling them badly that destroys reputations and customer confidence.

There is a long thread on the Yet Another Cycling Forum where Dave Yates answered posters' questions about framebuilding. One of his replies was to a poster with a fillet brazed frame which had suffered a crash, and as a result might need a new head tube. Dave Yates wrote:
Without inspecting the frame in the flesh I cannot be absolutely sure but a new head tube is a possibility. The problems faced by anyone attempting this on a fillet brazed frame are getting the old tube off without damaging the top and down tube, then getting the remnants of the fillets off the tubes so it is not an easy job. Of course with any major repair such as this there is always a risk, it will never be "as good as new"
(https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topi ... msg1677491)

Given that last sentence, I now agree with the posters above that simply replacing the head tube of the OP's frame is not an acceptable outcome.
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sussex cyclist
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by sussex cyclist »

They wouldn't rebuild it, but have offered a full refund.
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531colin
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by 531colin »

Thats a result, except that it puts you back to the start of your quest for a new bike. :?
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SimonCelsa
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by SimonCelsa »

Are you a 'bike for life' sort of chap, or someone who likes a new toy for a few years only?

If the latter then I don't think it would be unethical to take the full refund, and then offer to buy back the repaired bike (with new head tube), at a mutually acceptable discount. It would be best to first establish what the frame warranty would be.

That way at least you'd still have your first choice of bike at a discounted price, and the retailer wouldn't have a 'shop soiled' bespoke frameset they'd have to try and pass on.

It's an option you could pursue?
PH
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Re: Replace head tube?

Post by PH »

sussex cyclist wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 2:07pm They wouldn't rebuild it, but have offered a full refund.
I'd take that, though it's not so much an offer as the legal obligation.
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