Harry Dunn

Stradageek
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Harry Dunn

Post by Stradageek »

Am I the only person to be unsurprised but disappointed that the news media are ecstatic that Harry Dunn's killer has been sentenced but quite happy about a paltry penalty?

I'm not in favour of prison but surely a 10yr driving ban would have sent a much more forceful message to 'careless' drivers :?
mumbojumbo
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by mumbojumbo »

All a bit of a damp squib.
pwa
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by pwa »

I am not sure how to feel about this. Having a conviction, at last, is good. But it would have been far better if Anne Sacoolas had turned up in person to face the music. As for the sentence, well, I remember once, very briefly, driving on the wrong side of the road in France. Only for a second or two on a long straight with nobody else around. It is perilously easy to do when you have just set off and there is no traffic around to prompt you. I am disappointed that this tragic loss of life hasn't led to a study into what practical measures could reduce the chance of this sort of mistake happening again. There must be technical solutions open to us these days. Even if it were just big white direction arrrows on the road surface at places where foreign drivers begin their journey on UK roads. Or the sticker I put on my steering wheel to remind me which side of the car should be nearest to a gutter.
Nearholmer
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by Nearholmer »

I know the section of road where it happened (twisty and hilly, with fairly short sight-lines), and like PWA I’ve once accidentally defaulted to the wrong side of the road in France, so I can entirely see how this happened. The road is such that both parties could easily have assumed until the last millisecond that the other was in the opposite carriageway.

The risk possibly could be reduced at the location by somehow enforcing use of the left hand lane on the drive down from the RAF station gates to the road, then enforcing a very tight left turn only, but that would send all the traffic into a very narrow village street with nowhere to turn round, rather than towards the big main road. A long, new exit from the RAF station direct onto the roundabout on the main road? Maybe that would increase the risk.

Careless driving, or dangerous driving? Almost certainly falls under the former definition, therefore the penalties in the sentencing list for that offence. Whether they are appropriate/reasonable/fair is another question.

The whole skedaddling to the states with her government’s help: bloody disgrace. Even if she is a techno-spook, surely a trial under some sort of anonymity protection could have been organised.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 9 Dec 2022, 11:55am, edited 1 time in total.
Carlton green
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by Carlton green »

The penalty handed down was, I think, the best of a bad job; as far as I’m concerned politics has badly overridden justice.

The UK’s next step should be renegotiation of extradition terms with the USA, what’s in place now isn’t even handed and doesn’t serve justice adequately.

Mistakes happen. In this case it’s arguable that structural measures should have been put in place by the base commanding officers to ensure that there was no confusion for drivers. I think that various people have failed in their duty of care and have been doing so for some considerable time.
Last edited by Carlton green on 9 Dec 2022, 8:43am, edited 1 time in total.
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DaveReading
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by DaveReading »

pwa wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 4:35amThere must be technical solutions open to us these days. Even if it were just big white direction arrrows on the road surface at places where foreign drivers begin their journey on UK roads.
A bit like this, perhaps?

RAF Croughton.jpg
RAF Croughton.jpg (44.34 KiB) Viewed 1082 times
millimole
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by millimole »

Carlton green wrote:The penalty handed down was, I think, the best of a bad job; as far as I’m concerned politics has badly overridden justice.

The UK’s next step should be renegotiation of extradition terms with the USA, what’s in place now isn’t even handed and doesn’t serve justice adequately.

Mistakes happen. In this case it’s arguable that structural measures should have been put in place by the base commanding officers to ensure that there was no confusion for drivers. I think that various people have failed in their duty of care and have been doing so for some considerable time.
Those three paragraphs state exactly how I feel about the whole debacle.

How much of the sentence will be enforced, and exactly how it will be enforced is what I'm unclear about.
Does a Suspended Sentence or a driving ban have any meaning for a foreign national who will not set foot in the UK? (No, I didn't think so)
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Stradageek
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by Stradageek »

I'm sure we all feel 'I could have done this' but it does re-emphasise the long term issue of why we accept road deaths (75 killed or seriously injured every day) yet panic about terrorism or even air flight.

If we were really consistent in our risk assessments we'd have a far more peaceful country with speed limits of 55mph on motorways, 40mph on other roads and 20mph (enforced) in populated areas.

On the issue of American impunity, I was interested to discover that US/Iran relations first broke down over 40yrs ago when the USA demanded that all Americans living in Iran had full diplomatic immunity. This was sparked by - you guessed it - American drivers being punished for killing Iranian citizens in road accidents.
Mike Sales
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by Mike Sales »

Stradageek wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 9:17am I'm sure we all feel 'I could have done this' but it does re-emphasise the long term issue of why we accept road deaths (75 killed or seriously injured every day) yet panic about terrorism or even air flight.

If we were really consistent in our risk assessments we'd have a far more peaceful country with speed limits of 55mph on motorways, 40mph on other roads and 20mph (enforced) in populated areas.
Indeed. We tolerate a road environment where carelessness which is deemed hardly culpable, and even normal, by barely trained people operating lethal machinery, frequently kills or maims.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Bonefishblues
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by Bonefishblues »

His parents are now moving on, justice having been served in their view
Carlton green
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by Carlton green »

Bonefishblues wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 10:56am His parents are now moving on, justice having been served in their view
Yes, they have done what they can - and very much more than they ever should have had to do - and it’s right that they try to move on. The loss of a child is many things and a blight on a parent’s life …
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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mjr
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by mjr »

Nearholmer wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 7:06am The risk possibly could be reduced at the location by somehow enforcing use of the left hand lane on the drive down from the RAF station gates to the road, then enforcing a very tight left turn only, but that would send all the traffic into a very narrow village street with nowhere to turn round, rather than towards the big main road. A long, new exit from the RAF station direct onto the roundabout on the main road? Maybe that would increase the risk. The exit onto the B road now has a mini-roundabout, which I don’t think it did at the time, IIRC it was just a T, so maybe that’s intended to help.
The gates are close to the road, but it has been left-handed since the last rebuild which is more than a decade ago. The drive to the station gates is also left-handed as far back as you can see from the road. Satellite images suggest that most of the internal layout is either LH or one-way, but I don't know how old they are.

There wasn't yet a mini-roundabout on the exit when I last passed it a year ago, but there is a mini-roundabout before you enter the village where small vehicles could probably turn around. There's also a perimeter road gate onto the A43 already, but it's never looked like it's used much. So the right-turn could be closed and HGVs sent out the A43 gate, if there was will to do so. Edit to add: it's also possible to turn left at the mini-roundabout and reach the A43 but that's a long way on small roads for large vehicles and the A43 northbound access is a pretty short slip (but so is the perimeter road gate).

The layout of the T junction is painted to make right turns onto the right lane a pretty uncomfortable move. There's much less discouragement at a lot of junctions in East Anglia (not only airbases), where the centre island is sometimes even shaped () to make turning right easier, almost encouraging people to drive/ride on the right. At least twice, I've had to take avoiding action at night to avoid an oncoming large "saloon" on the wrong side of the road, once near RAF Lakenheath. They're referred to locally as "Yank Tank encounters".
DaveReading wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 8:25am
pwa wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 4:35amThere must be technical solutions open to us these days. Even if it were just big white direction arrrows on the road surface at places where foreign drivers begin their journey on UK roads.
A bit like this, perhaps?

RAF Croughton.jpg
Both the "Drive on left" sign and the big white direction arrows on the road surface are recent additions, but I don't know exactly when they were put up because I pass so infrequently.
Last edited by mjr on 9 Dec 2022, 12:08pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nearholmer
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by Nearholmer »

I wasn’t thinking so much of it all being LHD, which I’m sure it must always have been as an RAF location, as of somehow enforcing LH driving, a kerb down the middle of the drive or something, but looking at the satellite image the gate is a lot closer to the road than the impression I’d formed passing it.

The satellite doesn’t show a mini-roundabout either, so maybe I dreamt that, or conflated it with the one a bit further along.

0/10 for observation.

I plead in mitigation that it’s a section of road where you really need to focus hard on where you’re going, rather than things to either side.
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mjr
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by mjr »

Nearholmer wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 11:47am I plead in mitigation that it’s a section of road where you really need to focus hard on where you’re going, rather than things to either side.
I know what you mean. I've always the impression that that stretch is narrow tarmac "perched" on top of soft verges both sides, which is quite a contrast to the bendy tree-lined roads which seem the more common hazard around there. I know subsiding fen roads with deep water both sides which somehow feel less precarious to drive on.
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pete75
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Re: Harry Dunn

Post by pete75 »

Carlton green wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 7:49am The penalty handed down was, I think, the best of a bad job; as far as I’m concerned politics has badly overridden justice.

The UK’s next step should be renegotiation of extradition terms with the USA, what’s in place now isn’t even handed and doesn’t serve justice adequately.

Mistakes happen. In this case it’s arguable that structural measures should have been put in place by the base commanding officers to ensure that there was no confusion for drivers. I think that various people have failed in their duty of care and have been doing so for some considerable time.
It's to do with diplomatic immunity not extradition treaties.
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