Accident Prevention Technology

[Cunobelin]

The problem with technology is that it relies on models of behavior - it assumes (at the most basic level) that all drivers are reasonable sensible and will abide by a set of rules.

I remember many years ago a car that use the then fledgling ultrasound technology to measure the distance between vehicles. If you got too close the vehicle would correct speed so a safe distance was maintained and adjusted for speed.

In the laboratory and on the test circuit - it worked well.

First time out on the road, a numpty pulled out of a junction at point blank range causing the vehicle to brake sharply to an almost stop. Then on the motorway someone pulled across the lanes into the gap leaving a few feet, again causing a severe braking.

So an ideal system, but not one that can cope with the idiot minority

[kwackers]

The problem with technology is that it relies on models of behavior - it assumes (at the most basic level) that all drivers are reasonable sensible and will abide by a set of rules.

I remember many years ago a car that use the then fledgling ultrasound technology to measure the distance between vehicles. If you got too close the vehicle would correct speed so a safe distance was maintained and adjusted for speed.

In the laboratory and on the test circuit - it worked well.

First time out on the road, a numpty pulled out of a junction at point blank range causing the vehicle to brake sharply to an almost stop. Then on the motorway someone pulled across the lanes into the gap leaving a few feet, again causing a severe braking.

So an ideal system, but not one that can cope with the idiot minority

I think with the application of 'fuzzy logic' those problems can be improved.
But I have real reservations about automatic braking, I just feel that motorists would rely on it and become less observant. Obviously if they were actually paying attention then it wouldn't be needed...

The best thing about the Nissan system in the first post is that it doesn't prevent a collision - only reduces the damage so in this instance it isn't a substitute for paying attention.

However I wouldn't want to discount a system that could occasionally be useful as a safety feature, so what I suggest is electrodes in the seat. Everytime the cars automatics had to 'fix' your driving you get a 5000v shock in the buttocks.
I reckon you'd quickly learn not to rely on them, whilst at the same time they'd still be there should they really be needed

[byegad]

Picture this.

Numpty motorist blasting along a country road sees a cyclist ahead and pulls over to pass it. Around the next bend an oncoming car appears and numpty's car pulls in to avoid the oncoming car wiping out the cyclist in the process.

Council for numpty's defence says the car is to blame. Court nods and driver is aquitted.

As to driving bans don't make me laugh! Our local free rag has a regular proccession of 'Banned driver caught in car' articles. The local magistrates eventually imprisonned an offender, following his third appearance in two weeks and TWENTY SEVENTH!!!!!! ban!

No wonder the local plod don't care. Meanwhile the death penalty sounds good to me!

[JQ666]

Think its getting a bit intense between you guys for me to stay in this one

Just a bit of friendly banter between a reformed speeder (like a reformed smoker, I now preach zero tolerance), and someone with a view of the bigger picture.

I don't deny the picture is bigger than speeding - I just recognise that resouces for road safety will get smaller in real terms, not bigger. Therefore we will never have enough road police to enforce and educate against 'bad' driving. That leaves speeding, and personal experience has taught me that concentrating at driving within the posted limits at all times improves all round driving concentration (as well fantastic fuel economy, for all the climate change folks ).

Too many people jump in their car, start the engine, drive off and get up to their 'normal' speed without even knowing what that speed is (it's usually about 40mph in a 30 zone, and at least 30 in a 20 zone), let their mind wander (because they aren't focusing on anything to do with driving - after all there is no need to focus on speed if you're keeping up with the flow of traffic is there?), and then arrive at their destination without even a recollection of the journey they've just had. That is exactly how my driving used to be, but since my 'conversion' I am more focused on the driving, and the only thing I decided to change initially was my speed. But that has resulted in better all round driving.

I not naive enough to think that a world where all speed limits were adhered to would be a road safety utopia, but I do believe the roads would be much safer and that the resulting reduction in accidents would be more than the percentage that is currently put down to speeding as the main cause (since I beleive the knock-on effect would be increased driver concentration).

You can load a car with safety gadgets and gismos, or you can take them all out (just to hint back to the original post ) - but you're still left with a potentially lethal lump of metal and a driver. The driver makes the decisions, and one of those decisions will be what speed to drive. The problem is, for many drivers that decision isn't even a conscious one; it is a subconscious one where they just get up to their 'normal' speed which feels right. Driving within the speed limit requires concentration and brings conscious decision making back into the equation - got to be a good thing.

[kwackers]

That is exactly how my driving used to be, but since my 'conversion' I am more focused on the driving, and the only thing I decided to change initially was my speed. But that has resulted in better all round driving.

This is the crux of your argument.
You made a 'concious' decision to reduce your speed. Why? I'd suggest it was because you realised it made you a bad driver. And I agree.
However, once you've made a concious decision to improve your driving it will motivate you to improve it in other areas, and you're to be commended on that decision.

But where I think you're going wrong is assuming that enforced speed restrictions will have the same effect.

There's a world of difference between someone who wants to improve their driving and someone having it thrust upon them.

Hence my belief that it won't work and why I think we need to change social attitudes.

[Phil_Lee]

Very true.

I remember years ago when I was an RAC/ACU motorcycle training instructor.
This was years before training was made compulsory.

We had two distinct types of rider on the scheme; the ones who chose to attend in order to improve their own riding skills, and the ones who had been made to attend, usually by parents, as a condition of having a bike.

It was clearly noticeable which was which, as the "voluntary" trainees paid far more attention, and improved their riding far more, than those who had not chosen to attend.
It was also clear, from seeing the same riders in the locality after completing the course, that the voluntary trainees continued to utilise the skills even months or years later, while the others almost always forgot everything on the course as soon as they had the certificate.

People need to reach their own decision to improve their skills, or it becomes a matter of pure enforcement, which is near impossible when you are dealing with behaviour which is mostly a matter of paying attention, and almost impossible to detect until it is way too late (i.e. after an "accident").

[Cunobelin]

This is a recognised concern. Most of the "advanced educators" and curses recognise the danger of the driver who will then use these courses to justify speeding, "exciting" driving etc.

Recently there has been a suggestion that psychometric testing can (and does) identify those drivers with poor atitude and then remedial training can address this,with the ultimate choice of banning drivers who are deemed "psychologically unfit to drive"

[ianr1950]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, you believe nobody would play the 1 in a million odds of being caught for fear of 6 points. I think you're talking nonesense and there are better ways.

I don't believe that at all - I believe LESS people will play against the odds.

With regards to your belief that a driver concentrating on his / her speed is not necessarily a better and more attentive driver, I disagree. I have first hand experience of this from the fact that I was once a general speeder (i.e. same habit as most people driving today - get up to usual speed of the traffic flow e.g. 40mph in a 30 zone) and then one day I saw the light and made a conscious effort to concentrate on my speed and stick to / drive below the limits. The biggest effect I have noticed is that I am genrally more alert, more attentive, leave more room between me and the car in-front, more likely to hang back rather than attempt a daft / close over-take (afterall, I'm no longer in a 'rush'), less needless accelerating, more anticipating, etc, etc.

You can deny all you like, but it's true. Those who argue for improvements in driver standards without reference to the breaking of speed limits play right into the hands of the motoring lobby.

There are none more zealous and blinded by the light than the born again types.

[petercook80]

I not naive enough to think that a world where all speed limits were adhered to would be a road safety utopia, but I do believe the roads would be much safer and that the resulting reduction in accidents would be more than the percentage that is currently put down to speeding as the main cause (since I beleive the knock-on effect would be increased driver concentration).
.

Forgive me for not quoting your whole reply as it was very long. Just as a bit of friendly banter, how about - as speed gets higher then driver concentration gets so much higher, the focus and concentration of racing drivers is on another level. Even a non racing driver like me when I did a rally school day, I drove fast and the concentration I had to put in was beyond belief, purely because of the speed.
As I say only friendly banter and I know you cant apply it to the road, but its true none the less. Don't bite to hard

[petercook80]

I not naive enough to think that a world where all speed limits were adhered to would be a road safety utopia, but I do believe the roads would be much safer and that the resulting reduction in accidents would be more than the percentage that is currently put down to speeding as the main cause (since I beleive the knock-on effect would be increased driver concentration).
.

Another comparison that also occurred to me was the following...
If you’re out on a Sunday ride and at the start you’re ambling along at 12-15mph warming up and getting going are you concentrating more than blasting down a straight decent at 35mph latter in the ride ?
I know I concentrate more on the decent, how about you?

[JQ666]

I not naive enough to think that a world where all speed limits were adhered to would be a road safety utopia, but I do believe the roads would be much safer and that the resulting reduction in accidents would be more than the percentage that is currently put down to speeding as the main cause (since I beleive the knock-on effect would be increased driver concentration).
.

Another comparison that also occurred to me was the following...
If you’re out on a Sunday ride and at the start you’re ambling along at 12-15mph warming up and getting going are you concentrating more than blasting down a straight decent at 35mph latter in the ride ?
I know I concentrate more on the decent, how about you?

You've given 2 completely different examples than the situation I was describing - i.e. driving a car on UK roads. If you attempt to drive within the speed limit at all times you will have to concentrate more than if you just 'go with the flow'. Try it the next time you're out in a car. Don't get pressured by the car behind stuck to your rear bumper!

[petercook80]

[You've given 2 completely different examples than the situation I was describing - i.e. driving a car on UK roads. If you attempt to drive within the speed limit at all times you will have to concentrate more than if you just 'go with the flow'. Try it the next time you're out in a car. Don't get pressured by the car behind stuck to your rear bumper!

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you; I just thought I would give two examples of how faster speed makes you concentrate harder, not less.
What I do know is (that within limits) the slower I go when driving the harder I find it is to stay focused. To put that into context, if I am on the motorway doing 65 I find it harder to keep alert than if I am doing 75. You seem to be saying your different, which is fine, I can only talk about how I feel.
(and no I am not condoning speeding by those comments, to pre-empt any replies)

Overall I would say that if as a driver I focus on many things my driving is better, giving yourself a running commentary either loudly or in your head is one of the best ways of driving better. Speed is one of them but not the most important in my view.

[Cunobelin]

Coincidentally.....

This is one of the "danger points" being suggested by groups perfoming psychometric testing for drivers

Difficulty in concentrating at lower speeds and proneness to fatugue / boredom are listed as some of the "risk factors" that has been identified as requiring remedial training

[kwackers]

Coincidentally.....

This is one of the "danger points" being suggested by groups perfoming psychometric testing for drivers

Difficulty in concentrating at lower speeds and proneness to fatugue / boredom are listed as some of the "risk factors" that has been identified as requiring remedial training

What sort of remedial training fixed boredom?

[JQ666]

Coincidentally.....

This is one of the "danger points" being suggested by groups perfoming psychometric testing for drivers

Difficulty in concentrating at lower speeds and proneness to fatugue / boredom are listed as some of the "risk factors" that has been identified as requiring remedial training

What sort of remedial training fixed boredom?

Motorways are boring at any speed. My eyes got just as tired when I did 90+ ("back in the day") as they do now within the speed limit. On a long motorway drive, the safest option is to take regular stops - cup of coffee or a nap usually does the trick.