Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

[simonineaston]

I moan furiously on this forum and elsewhere about the way we react to climate change. My main coping strategy is to continue my lifelong habit of doing all my local journies by bike. And I'm lucky enough to have modest savings, some invested in stocks and shares. I'm getting increasingly peed off with the fossel fuel sector, the inflexibility, the greenwashing, and it turns out, their downright lies and deceit, as well as the leverage they appear to have with the government.
How do you, dear reader, deal with this issue, ie how much effort do you put into not giving your money to fossil fuel companies or else, not supporting them by buying their shares? Do you think the time has come when we should put our money where our gobs are and insist that they start making other plans. Or are you content to let someone else do that job? And if so, who are these other persons and are they, in your view, proving effective?
I read this morning the transcript of a speech given by a respected science journalist at Princetown in Nov. of last year. It's about the stories we tell ourselves and each other. I'm going to stop telling myself that Shell, Exonn, BP etc. are good guys at heart and will eventually do the right thing...
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/j ... ew-stories

[Jdsk]

Yes, many of my friends and family have been trying for a few decades to make savings decisions that reflect their own values.

It often started with avoiding the tobacco and arms industries, but sustainability is now amongst those values.

There's lots of advice about so the question becomes which to trust, just as you say. A recent Which? article:
"Ethical investing explained":
https://www.which.co.uk/money/investing ... dsC3A8XrpH

Are you looking for specific investments such as tracker funds?

Jonathan

PS: On effectiveness... there was time when "ethical investment" did give greater returns than average, but I haven't seen any data on that recently, and we're now dealing with much greater uncertainty on all savings.

[irc]

Like most of us I drive a car and take the odd flight. I heat my home with gas. I depend on food grown using diesel tractors, fertilisers from fossil fuels, and buy my food from supermarkets which require diesel trucks for distribution.

Why would I boycott Shell?

[Jdsk]

Like most of us I drive a car and take the odd flight. I heat my home with gas. I depend on food grown using diesel tractors, fertilisers from fossil fuels, and buy my food from supermarkets which require diesel trucks for distribution.

Why would I boycott Shell?

Yes, lots of pragmatic decisions are needed.

But the choice with savings is about how we want to affect the future and how quickly we want things to change.

Jonathan

[Carlton green]

Like most of us I drive a car and take the odd flight. I heat my home with gas. I depend on food grown using diesel tractors, fertilisers from fossil fuels, and buy my food from supermarkets which require diesel trucks for distribution.

Why would I boycott Shell?

If I had money to invest then I wouldn’t so much boycott fossil fuel companies (that wouldn’t necessarily make financial sense) but rather I’d be more looking towards ethical companies that also had the potential for reasonable financial returns. I rarely fly (might well be a decade since I was last on an aeroplane) and I don’t use my car much but some use of fossil fuel is still necessary for me at this point in time - others might have managed to arrange their lives differently (be fossil fuel less) and if then I congratulate them. If the oil companies all flopped tomorrow then society would collapse within weeks; if their share price fell through the floor they would doubtless be bought out by unscrupulous individuals who would make the current shareholders and boards look angelic.

In a way I think that ethical investors, and ethical investment funds in particular, should have some holdings in oil companies as, in theory at least, shareholders can ask questions and influence the future direction of companies. I’d want to influence them to invest in green energy forms and to progressively transfer their business away from fossil fuel. At some point petrol stations up and down the land will charge electric vehicles, Shell and the like might like to sell motorists electric energy that’s been gather from their own wind farms and solar farms, etc.

As they say: “be careful what you wish for” (you might get it and it too often doesn’t end well).

[mumbojumbo]

All acts of consumption ,with very few exceptions ,unwittingly condone the use of fossil fuels
1.farms and fertiisers
2.any item purchased in retail outlets
3.trainor bus journey
4.energy in the home
A better strategy is to become a shareholder and attend the AGM and question the board.

[Tangled Metal]

I wonder if avoiding hydrocarbon industry is as possible as being 100% vegan. There's always a involvement of hydrocarbon and always an involvement of animals in something almost everyone uses in the modern world.

It's a case of finding your level of involvement vs sacrifice you're willing to make. Just don't try to be hypocritical about your decisions.

[PedallingSquares]

Just about everything you buy gives money to the fossil fuel industry.
That will not change in the near future.
I think If I ever get grandkids, it will also be the same for them.There is no viable alternative and probably won't be for at least a few generations.All the current 'solutions' are not solutions and will never work.There is too much money invested for any alternatives to be workable.
Greta wotsherface has a lot to answer for and she's just a puppet fed by those near and dear to her and unfortunately Governments are using her narrative as a means to create more money for themselves.

[al_yrpal]

Its perfectly possible to buy shares giving 6-7% dividends without any fossil fuel involvement.
However everything and everyone supports fossil fuels in some way by just living a normal life. You cant make a heat pump, a wind turbine or a solar panel without them. Until recently the Chinese were still commisioning one coal fired station a week to meet what are ultimately our needs. Sad aint it.
California seems to be reaping a grim harvest. Expect action soon?

Al

[mattheus]

Like most of us I drive a car and take the odd flight. I heat my home with gas. I depend on food grown using diesel tractors, fertilisers from fossil fuels, and buy my food from supermarkets which require diesel trucks for distribution.

Why would I boycott Shell?

A more pertinent question:
Why are you posting on this thread? If you're just generally pro-fossil fuel, go and drive your car round for a bit!

[mattheus]

Just about everything you buy gives money to the fossil fuel industry.
That will not change in the near future.
I think If I ever get grandkids, it will also be the same for them.There is no viable alternative and probably won't be for at least a few generations.All the current 'solutions' are not solutions and will never work.There is too much money invested for any alternatives to be workable.
Greta wotsherface has a lot to answer for

Er ... what???

She's trying to effect change. Isn't she? More so than you posting "That will not change in the near future."

What on earth drives you to pick on Greta??

[Cugel]

Just about everything you buy gives money to the fossil fuel industry.
That will not change in the near future.
I think If I ever get grandkids, it will also be the same for them.There is no viable alternative and probably won't be for at least a few generations.All the current 'solutions' are not solutions and will never work.There is too much money invested for any alternatives to be workable.
Greta wotsherface has a lot to answer for and she's just a puppet fed by those near and dear to her and unfortunately Governments are using her narrative as a means to create more money for themselves.

A cynical view, that. And also self-serving, of course, as its a perfek excuse for attempting no changes to the sort of profligate, damaging and uncaring lifestyle many of us got used to as big business and technology became consumer goods-spreading plague dogs spreading also untold degradation and misery, eventually even to those once comfortable recipients of the "never had it so good" years who are now having to choose between heat or eat as they too slowly degrade in lifestyle, both from the uncaring neglect of neoliberalism's "human resources" but also from its many air, water-borne and brainwashing toxins.

Yet it is hard to let go of, give up or find alternatives to our profligate and damaging modern habits. Still worth a try, though, even if it is largely micturating into the gale of, "It's just how it is" thinking.

***********
Frankly, you're right to suggest that there won't be much change over the next few decades, because of the inertia (or momentum) of the current status quo. Vested interest in making money and exercising vast powers at any cost are deaf to any suggestion of the fundamental changes that would save us from murdering ourselves and huge swathes of the biosphere. Even the question posed in this thread is probably the wrong question as it seems to suggest the preservation of all the current economic systems that underlie our rush for the cliffs of doom.

The notion of finance capitalism, including stocks and shares with the usury main-motor driving the whole edifice, itself needs to be replaced with modes that don't automatically stimulate greed and all of the human predisposition to being self-centred little skinbags happy to trash "all that" for a teeny bit of "this I want now".

On the other hand, there may be some rather irresistible changes that'll sweep away not just finance capitalism but most of the human race. When our highly networked systems of vast interdependencies go phut and the war of all against all really takes off, there'll be a thousand ways to die quickly and soon.

Cugel

[Cugel]

Just about everything you buy gives money to the fossil fuel industry.
That will not change in the near future.
I think If I ever get grandkids, it will also be the same for them.There is no viable alternative and probably won't be for at least a few generations.All the current 'solutions' are not solutions and will never work.There is too much money invested for any alternatives to be workable.
Greta wotsherface has a lot to answer for

Er ... what???

She's trying to effect change. Isn't she? More so than you posting "That will not change in the near future."

What on earth drives you to pick on Greta??

The need to keep that sub-concious guilt and shame at bay?

Cugel, as guilty and shame-faced as everyone else.

[Jdsk]

...
In a way I think that ethical investors, and ethical investment funds in particular, should have some holdings in oil companies as, in theory at least, shareholders can ask questions and influence the future direction of companies. I’d want to influence them to invest in green energy forms and to progressively transfer their business away from fossil fuel. At some point petrol stations up and down the land will charge electric vehicles, Shell and the like might like to sell motorists electric energy that’s been gather from their own wind farms and solar farms, etc.
...

It's possible to do both: put some/ most/ nearly all of your savings into things that reflect your values, and keep enough to exert influence as a shareholder. The latter probably requires action by groups rather than individuals.

Jonathan

[mattheus]

Just about everything you buy gives money to the fossil fuel industry.
That will not change in the near future.
I think If I ever get grandkids, it will also be the same for them.There is no viable alternative and probably won't be for at least a few generations.All the current 'solutions' are not solutions and will never work.There is too much money invested for any alternatives to be workable.
Greta wotsherface has a lot to answer for

Er ... what???

She's trying to effect change. Isn't she? More so than you posting "That will not change in the near future."

What on earth drives you to pick on Greta??

The need to keep that sub-concious guilt and shame at bay?

Yes, this weird Greta-bashing does come across a bit
"doth protest too much" !