Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

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reohn2
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by reohn2 »

I'm not clever enough to know all the answers to our transport problems,(is anyone?) but the more I look into electric vehicles the more skeptical I become of their perceived green credentials and that it has the potential to become the next "dieselgate" when all the facts emerge and more people become aware their shorcomings
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Tangled Metal
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by Tangled Metal »

Hypocrisy is an thing to slip into. We're very good at compartmentalising our lives and habits from the wider picture. It's possibly why Fry can or could drive a Bentley or old London cab while espousing reduced reliance on fossil fuels. Or we could ethical invest our savings but buy the products or benefit from the companies we're no longer investing in on ethical grounds.

As to sleb influence and campaigning, I take that as white noise and try not to take it in. I don't see them as having the skillset or knowledge to inform me on matters of importance. I might listen if they did. For example I'm 50:50 over listening to Baddiel over antisemitism. I bet the idea that guys political leanings bring a degree of blindness and he's been responsible for racist tropes or performances in the past. He does however have a degree of authority when he speaks on antisemitism.

One final point, we all have our own views, beliefs and priorities on every part of or influence on our lives. I think we should educate ourselves, make our own decisions and if necessary defend them. In my case I'm fortunate in that I moved into a house with solar panels. I'd not afford it myself but I am glad I've got them for many reasons. I moved to a house and village where I could use mixed mode commuting by train and bike. This allows us to use our ICE vehicle less. We're talking of 20k plus miles per year down to 6500 miles in our first year here. We got rid of our car but kept our partially converted campervan. Not fuel efficient but actually gives slightly better mpg and emissions than the car we got rid of. Not the best but best we can manage right now. Perhaps we could get an electric van converted one day but not a chance now. Unfortunately we choose to run a van for our UK based holidays. So by not flying away on holiday perhaps that offsets the use of the van a little?

I ramble but my point is I don't care what others do I do what I can but make choices that in our opinion is right for us. Not the best choices but we're doing a bit. It's a journey to where we need to be. We've got to start the change and that's on us. It's what we can do. I hope one day personal transportation becomes better and cheaper for us to buy but also the planet. When that happens we'll make that choice when we can.

In the meantime I'm not going to make virtue signalling choices by changing my investments. That will not make a jot of difference not least because we all give them money another way. I'm doing what I think I can do to make a difference even if that's tiny compared to what is needed. It's my start on the journey.
Biospace
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by Biospace »

pwa wrote: 28 Jan 2023, 5:16pm I'm guessing you live in a lowland area towards the east midlands, East Anglia or another place where large arable farms dominate. The vast wealth you describe is, in the upland areas, contrasted with farms barely breaking even. I see fields alomst abandoned, with scrub and thistles where there was once lush grass pasture, the farmer having given up. The farmers around our village are getting by, not rolling in money.

The point being made was that small farms have been 'disappearing' because they're being bought out by larger ones, made wealthier than otherwise through decades of subsidies, something you seem to have missed. My mention of this was a response to your talk of the demise of small farms.

Mentioning 'wealth' and 'farmer' in the same post does not mean I am saying that all farmers are wealthy.

And no, we're not in an area dominated by arable barons, more upland, traditional, mixed farms. If you're seeing fields which look abandoned, this could very likely be because there is a government incentive, https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-c ... 88876.html

I was hoping a discussion might involve how to reduce agricultural carbon emissions, given they're accountable for between a quarter and a third of all manmade ones. While politicians talk of 'efficiencies' in farming (presumably hoping this translates directly into revenue), I'm reminded that around three times the energy is needed today to make one unit of food energy than in the 1950s.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by al_yrpal »

reohn2 wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 12:58pm I'm not clever enough to know all the answers to our transport problems,(is anyone?) but the more I look into electric vehicles the more skeptical I become of their perceived green credentials and that it has the potential to become the next "dieselgate" when all the facts emerge and more people become aware their shorcomings
Yer not wrong...

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
mattheus
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by mattheus »

Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 1:19pm Hypocrisy is an thing to slip into.
...
In the meantime I'm not going to make virtue signalling choices by changing my investments. That will not make a jot of difference not least because we all give them money another way. I'm doing what I think I can do to make a difference even if that's tiny compared to what is needed. It's my start on the journey.
I'm baffled! Why does someone else choosing ethical investments become "virtue signalling" compare to you doing a few less ICE miles??

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HE is a hypocrite.
SHE is virtue signalling.
I am a realist, and do what I can.
reohn2
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by reohn2 »

More home truths about EV ownership compared to an ICE vehicle for the ordinary wo/man on the street:- https://youtu.be/gXGHTTl_ZWw
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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Cugel
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by Cugel »

mattheus wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 10:02am
Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 1:19pm Hypocrisy is an thing to slip into.
...
In the meantime I'm not going to make virtue signalling choices by changing my investments. That will not make a jot of difference not least because we all give them money another way. I'm doing what I think I can do to make a difference even if that's tiny compared to what is needed. It's my start on the journey.
I'm baffled! Why does someone else choosing ethical investments become "virtue signalling" compare to you doing a few less ICE miles??

-------------

HE is a hypocrite.
SHE is virtue signalling.
I am a realist, and do what I can.
I'm always baffled by the "virtue signalling" thing. If one is virtuous, what is wrong with signalling it to others as an example? Do we not tend to look for and praise those who behave well as mentors or even heroes? Is it the pompous claim to be such that annoys the less than virtuous?

Perhaps the opprobrium attached to the phrase is because some signal virtue without actually practicing the virtue they claim? But one gets the impression that the vice-ridden folk sneer at the genuinely virtuous as a means to cover their own secret shames or even guilts. :-)

Anyroadup, the signalling of a (genuine) virtue seems preferable to the signalling of boasted-about vice, especially those vices of the nastier kind bellowed out by misogynists, racists, homophobes and all the other intolerant little yoiks found doing their red-faced shouts on anti-social media and in the gutter press. But perhaps they see their intolerances and feelings of supremacy as virtues?

***********
Realists are a mixed bunch, eh? There's a goodly portion of them that equate realism with an immutable status quo, wherein any possibility of a change for the better is denied. Sometimes I feel like that about humans in general since we're all so readily drawn into bad behaviours as we are good behaviours. But the seriously ossified realist seems ready to tolerate all sorts of bad stuff, with no effort to try themselves for anything more virtuous. Realism becomes an excuse for doing ill.

Personally I try to admit to myself and others my vices, lacks, shortcomings and other behaviours that could do with improving. Being a grateful recipient of the Judeo-Christian traditions, I find the notions of sin, confession, forgiveness and redemption/reform meaningful and useful. Naturally, being a human, I repeat the cycle endlessly, always able to find new personal sins to commit! :-)

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
axel_knutt
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by axel_knutt »

reohn2 wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 12:58pm I'm not clever enough to know all the answers to our transport problems,(is anyone?) but the more I look into electric vehicles the more skeptical I become of their perceived green credentials and that it has the potential to become the next "dieselgate" when all the facts emerge and more people become aware their shorcomings
Anyone who looks at bicycles with an open mind is likely to come to the same conclusion, it's only a matter of time before the anti-cycling lobby latch onto the CO2 emissions from cycling, and then it will turn into not only another stick to beat cyclists with, but also a scandal to try and discredit climate science. This is why I insist the solution has to include a lot less travel.

Several generations now have grown up with the idea that they can easily and cheaply travel as far as they please in pursuit of the job or the lifestyle they want, and the fact is that we're entering an era when that sort of behaviour isn't sustainable any more.

I've tried drawing cyclists attention to carbon emissions numerous times over the the years, and the arguments I get aren't exactly thoroughly thought out:

"People have to eat anyway"
A bit like I can run my TV for free because I'm already buying electricity for the washing machine?

"I can cycle 100 miles on one banana"
And I can drive a hundred miles without stopping to put and petrol in the tank.

"I eat the same on days when I cycle little as days when I ride further"
Well I can put the same amount of petrol in the car for short journeys as long journeys, too, as long as the average petrol supply matches the average mileage.

A couple of years ago there was a paper from a guy at Oxford doing the rounds which 'showed' how 'green' cycling is by accounting for only the carbon from cycle manufacture, and ignoring food production altogether. I spoke to him by email, and he sent me another of his papers claiming that cycling burns no calories at all, on the basis of data from a consumer survey. They must have been canvassing people who think like the ones above, presumably. I followed up his other two references, and they don't say what he claims they say.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Carlton green
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by Carlton green »

reohn2 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 10:35am More home truths about EV ownership compared to an ICE vehicle for the ordinary wo/man on the street:- https://youtu.be/gXGHTTl_ZWw
That’s an hour’s worth so I passed on it. This is 15 min’s of TED talk, seems to be pretty logical to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1E8SQde5rk

Of course, what’s logic got to do with political decisions …
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
reohn2
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by reohn2 »

Axle_knutt
You'll get no argument from me on that score.

Carlton Green
The video I linked to is 7.43secs :?
Thanks for the Tedtalk link,interesting and very true.The point the YT video I linked to is that for the ordinary wo/man on the street the Ev isn't affordable and nowhere near as green as we're lead to believe,confirmed by the Tedtalk in your link.
Last edited by reohn2 on 30 Jan 2023, 4:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by mattheus »

axel_knutt wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 3:46pm
reohn2 wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 12:58pm I'm not clever enough to know all the answers to our transport problems,(is anyone?) but the more I look into electric vehicles the more skeptical I become of their perceived green credentials and that it has the potential to become the next "dieselgate" when all the facts emerge and more people become aware their shorcomings
Anyone who looks at bicycles with an open mind is likely to come to the same conclusion, it's only a matter of time before the anti-cycling lobby latch onto the CO2 emissions from cycling, and then it will turn into not only another stick to beat cyclists with, but also a scandal to try and discredit climate science. This is why I insist the solution has to include a lot less travel.

Several generations now have grown up with the idea that they can easily and cheaply travel as far as they please in pursuit of the job or the lifestyle they want, and the fact is that we're entering an era when that sort of behaviour isn't sustainable any more.

I've tried drawing cyclists attention to carbon emissions numerous times over the the years, and the arguments I get aren't exactly thoroughly thought out:

"People have to eat anyway"
A bit like I can run my TV for free because I'm already buying electricity for the washing machine?

"I can cycle 100 miles on one banana"
And I can drive a hundred miles without stopping to put and petrol in the tank.

"I eat the same on days when I cycle little as days when I ride further"
Well I can put the same amount of petrol in the car for short journeys as long journeys, too, as long as the average petrol supply matches the average mileage.

A couple of years ago there was a paper from a guy at Oxford doing the rounds which 'showed' how 'green' cycling is by accounting for only the carbon from cycle manufacture, and ignoring food production altogether. I spoke to him by email, and he sent me another of his papers claiming that cycling burns no calories at all, on the basis of data from a consumer survey. They must have been canvassing people who think like the ones above, presumably. I followed up his other two references, and they don't say what he claims they say.
Is this satire?
reohn2
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by reohn2 »

mattheus wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 4:14pm Is this satire?
Of course.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Tangled Metal
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by Tangled Metal »

mattheus wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 10:02am
Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Jan 2023, 1:19pm Hypocrisy is an thing to slip into.
...
In the meantime I'm not going to make virtue signalling choices by changing my investments. That will not make a jot of difference not least because we all give them money another way. I'm doing what I think I can do to make a difference even if that's tiny compared to what is needed. It's my start on the journey.
I'm baffled! Why does someone else choosing ethical investments become "virtue signalling" compare to you doing a few less ICE miles??

-------------

HE is a hypocrite.
SHE is virtue signalling.
I am a realist, and do what I can.
Well if you're stop investments that include fossil m fossil fuels and publicly state it on an forum, but the rest of your life is spent carrying on as normal them what do you call it?

As to reducing my ICE mileage to a third of what it was or less, having solar panels and trying to reduce other environmentally damaging practises like not flying away on holiday imho that's probably going to have a greater effect. Incidentally I don't have investments in fossil fuels directly except I might indirectly through my main bank but I don't see that as having much positive effect. Perhaps some activist investors might have mass to make a change but individual investors stopping their 5 or 10k savings, or whatever it is. YMMV
pwa
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by pwa »

I agree that our main leverage with the fossil fuels industry is as users, which is what we are. We create the market with our purchases. Okay, we can shift our investments around a bit to take them away from BP or whoever, leaving other less bothered investors to take up our shares, but we won't close the industry down until we remove our own demand for its products. It is our industry. We make it by buying fuels, and the products dependent on those fuels. Just like drug users, we create the market for a product we despise.

Quite by accident my main pension funds are invested ethically, and not in fossil fuels. That was the choice of an employer I had when I started off. My main savings outside that are in a mutual building society, so maybe they have a finger or two in fossil fuels. I don't know.
Biospace
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by Biospace »

Yes, the power of the consumer is huge and mostly untapped. If just a third of customers badgered for less plastic packaging, it would likely have a significant effect.

However until economics change, little more than lip-service will be paid to the destruction of our biome and the planet as a whole, https://www.npr.org/2021/09/03/10314347 ... thats-good and https://www.openseas.org.uk/news/a-less ... ch-carron/

How or when will economics change to reflect the cost to our environment/planet? I really don't have a clue although there are plans to introduce a CBDC, with the possibility of it replacing cash altogether.

Printed circuit boards contain huge levels of embodied energy as well as rare metals, yet they appear everywhere and often where not necessary, let alone in the smartphones which so many control their lives with/are controlled by.
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