Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

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reohn2
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by reohn2 »

Cugel wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:49am ........Cugel, as guilty and shame-faced as everyone else.
Likewise,I'm as guilty as the next wo/man on the street or if you prefer the Clapham Omnibus,our savings are with a Building Society and we don't knowingly invest in fossil fuel companies,that said we do burn fossil fuels,in the form of petrol,diesel and gas,either directly or indirectly.
So we're guilty as charged m'lud,but then who isn't?

BTW,if anyone thinks electric vehicles are the answer to the world's ills they're sadly deluded,IMHO it's just kicking the can down the road a bit.
Humanity is a blight on the Earth,we're prolific breeders and gross resource consumers of all kinds,we can of course minimise those things but it's way too late to reverse any serious impact we've made on the planet,we're too many who want too much.Greta Thunberg is correct we've sold ourselves and future generations down the river on the promise of "growth year on year" so let's not kid ourselves.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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PedallingSquares
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by PedallingSquares »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:46am Er ... what???
She's trying to effect change. Isn't she? More so than you posting "That will not change in the near future."
What on earth drives you to pick on Greta??
No she's being used.I'm not picking on her :roll: I'm giving an opinion.It's an opinion shared by many :roll:
Does anyone really fall for all her rantings?It's obvious that she is a voice-box.Manipulated from being a small child.I just don't believe any of her backstory.It's all too 'Hollywood'.
I also can't see how she practices what she preaches when she's here, there, and everywhere.Sadly the tree-huggers and eco-terrorists love everything that surrounds this puppet :roll:
There's non so blind as those who won't see.
Cugel wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:49am
mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:46am Er ... what???
She's trying to effect change. Isn't she? More so than you posting "That will not change in the near future."
What on earth drives you to pick on Greta??
The need to keep that sub-concious guilt and shame at bay? :-)
Absolutely no guilt here I can assure you :lol:
mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:54am Yes, this weird Greta-bashing does come across a bit
"doth protest too much" ! :D
Greta bashing. :lol: :lol: :lol:
For daring to question her narrative :roll:
mattheus
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by mattheus »

PedallingSquares wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 10:30am
mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:54am Yes, this weird Greta-bashing does come across a bit
"doth protest too much" ! :D
Greta bashing. :lol: :lol: :lol:
For daring to question her narrative :roll:
Forgive us for finding your style a bit peculiar. Sure, disagreement is normal, common. But normal is to question a view, maybe post some facts supporting your view, or even just giving details on why you disagree ...

But you (and the others you cite with the same view) have chosen to focus on Greta. You say she's brainwashed. You say she's hypocritical with her dreadful travelling "here, there, and everywhere". (why does that change the discussion? It doesn't stop YOU reducing your harm to the planet - be the better man!)

You even use this weird phrase "question her narrative" ... what's "narrative" got to do with anything?!? This is about science. And the world your grandchildren will live in. "Grandad could have helped stop climate change - but at least he questioned a a 15year-olds narrative, well done Gramps!"
irc
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by irc »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:43am
irc wrote: 12 Jan 2023, 5:30pm Like most of us I drive a car and take the odd flight. I heat my home with gas. I depend on food grown using diesel tractors, fertilisers from fossil fuels, and buy my food from supermarkets which require diesel trucks for distribution.

Why would I boycott Shell?
A more pertinent question:
Why are you posting on this thread? If you're just generally pro-fossil fuel, go and drive your car round for a bit!
A thread about whether we should boycott fossil fuels? Is only one opinion allowed?
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simonineaston
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by simonineaston »

As already noted, in modern life, unless you're a dedicated off-grid outrider, not giving money to fossil fuel industries is almost impossible. Fossil fuels are threaded through our society in a great many ways. Take the food share company I do shifts with. 99% of the food we get is grown because of fossil fuels (energy for machinery, fertiliser & all the other chemicals), the food arrives due to fossil fuel, and departs to customers due to fossil fuel. Etc., etc., etc..
The question is not so much about our current way-of-life but rather, sending a message to these companies that says we'd like them to use their considerable power and knowledge (we learn that Exonn were at the forefront of detailed and extensive climate change research, back in the '70s!) to develop alternatives as soon as possible. How is that message best sent?
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
mattheus
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by mattheus »

irc wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 10:53am
mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:43am
irc wrote: 12 Jan 2023, 5:30pm Like most of us I drive a car and take the odd flight. I heat my home with gas. I depend on food grown using diesel tractors, fertilisers from fossil fuels, and buy my food from supermarkets which require diesel trucks for distribution.

Why would I boycott Shell?
A more pertinent question:
Why are you posting on this thread? If you're just generally pro-fossil fuel, go and drive your car round for a bit!
A thread about whether we should boycott fossil fuels? Is only one opinion allowed?
Oh sorry, I get it now:

You're defending universal use of fossil fuel as part of the wider defence of free speech.

OK, that makes sense - good for you! 👍🏼
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simonineaston
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by simonineaston »

When I posted this, it was as a result of posting pretty much the same Q. on the savings / investment board at the MSE forum. The answers were almost universally along the lines of "If you want to maximise your returns, don't rule anything out..."
I'd been hoping for more nuance - a wider spread of suggestions. I know there's no easy answer. I know we all invest in fossil fuels daily, one way or another - that is, unless you're very left-field, off-grid and somehow self sufficient...
But my sense is that in the fast-moving realm of climate change, the mood is changing and people are begining to ask if there might be ways to lean on the ff industries and I'm wanting to hear the rustle of those tiny green shoots emerging...
Examples are banks like Triodos (based in Bristol), articles in the likes of Forbes and the Times, and the adoption of change by investment as a subject for discussion at COPs. Not so much 'ethical' investment - rather investment for survival.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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simonineaston
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by simonineaston »

ps there was a good article in The Graun y'day (a transcript of a lecture given at Princeton last autumn) which I link below, on the subject of story telling and climate change.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/j ... ew-stories
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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Cugel
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by Cugel »

PedallingSquares wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 10:30am
Greta bashing. :lol: :lol: :lol:
For daring to question her narrative :roll:
Well .... there wasn't any questioning of her narrative, was there? Just a general sneer that sounds rather like those emitted by climate change deniers and similar, busy protecting their "right" to go on with the planet-pillaging and the rush to burn it all up.

Why would you need to do Greta-sneering if you don't feel any of that guilt, eh, eh? Perhaps because she's not like you and makes it all too clear why not? :-)

But you're right that many people feel just as you do, so that must mean the Greta is just an armature of the Great Anti Oil Conspiracy efforts to deprive you of your hot living room and motorbike roaring. What other explanation could there be!?

Cugel, ordering 20cwt of brown coal to burn just because I can. (No I'm not).
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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Cugel
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by Cugel »

irc wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 10:53am
mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:43am
irc wrote: 12 Jan 2023, 5:30pm Like most of us I drive a car and take the odd flight. I heat my home with gas. I depend on food grown using diesel tractors, fertilisers from fossil fuels, and buy my food from supermarkets which require diesel trucks for distribution.

Why would I boycott Shell?
A more pertinent question:
Why are you posting on this thread? If you're just generally pro-fossil fuel, go and drive your car round for a bit!
A thread about whether we should boycott fossil fuels? Is only one opinion allowed?
Have as many as as daft opinions as you like. It's ain't disallowing them to disagree with them.

Why do you for-the-status-quo lads always think that someone disagreeing with you is denying your free speech? Moaning on and complaining about someone disagreeing with you is much more a case of denying free speech, especially when you complain to mods or others inclined to shut off the disagreements because your "feelings" were hurt.

It's all a bit reminiscent of those who would bring back laws punishing heresy and blasphemy agin' the dominant dogmas of the powerful.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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Cugel
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by Cugel »

simonineaston wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 11:07am As already noted, in modern life, unless you're a dedicated off-grid outrider, not giving money to fossil fuel industries is almost impossible. Fossil fuels are threaded through our society in a great many ways. Take the food share company I do shifts with. 99% of the food we get is grown because of fossil fuels (energy for machinery, fertiliser & all the other chemicals), the food arrives due to fossil fuel, and departs to customers due to fossil fuel. Etc., etc., etc..
The question is not so much about our current way-of-life but rather, sending a message to these companies that says we'd like them to use their considerable power and knowledge (we learn that Exonn were at the forefront of detailed and extensive climate change research, back in the '70s!) to develop alternatives as soon as possible. How is that message best sent?
You're assuming that the fossil fuel industry is willing to listen to the message about their harm-doing. Any evidence of that so far, other than the PR greenwashing response, as they ramp up the oil extraction and promotion?

The only "message" that would work would be one from the many lawgivers about new and serious penalties for doing all that harm, along with a few test cases demonstrating a serious intent to enforce these new laws. What chance of that, do you think?

Meanwhile, shareholders go on supporting the oil extraction and promotion merely by having the shares. Nor do they seem to worry too much about the harm when their dividends ramp up enormously as the oily rascals ramp up the charges for energy and never mind a few millions freezing to death or becoming otherwise unable to afford to live.

I can only suggest selling those shares and putting the money in a mutual building society or donating it to Greta. :-)

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
mattheus
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by mattheus »

PedallingSquares wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 10:30am
mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:46am Er ... what???
She's trying to effect change. Isn't she? More so than you posting "That will not change in the near future."
What on earth drives you to pick on Greta??
Does anyone really fall for all her rantings?It's obvious that she is a voice-box.Manipulated from being a small child.I just don't believe any of her backstory.It's all too 'Hollywood'.
Yes, it would be terrible if people fell for it
clip_image002 (1).jpg
irc
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by irc »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 12:35pm
PedallingSquares wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 10:30am
mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 9:46am Er ... what???
She's trying to effect change. Isn't she? More so than you posting "That will not change in the near future."
What on earth drives you to pick on Greta??
Does anyone really fall for all her rantings?It's obvious that she is a voice-box.Manipulated from being a small child.I just don't believe any of her backstory.It's all too 'Hollywood'.
Yes, it would be terrible if people fell for it clip_image002 (1).jpg
Energy independence?

"Despite the overall fall in UK energy consumption and the increasing use of renewable and waste sources, the UK’s reliance on imported energy has returned to the levels last seen around the mid-to late-1970s."

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environm ... 2016-08-15

Rain forests? It's logging not climate change.

Sustainabilty? Energy imports increasing.

Green Jobs? In Scotland 110,000 promised. Delivered - 20,000 and falling.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/ ... s-26484860

Renewables? Which resulted in National Grid issueing blackout warnings.

Clean water? Healthy children. We have both.
mattheus
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by mattheus »

irc wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 1:03pm Green Jobs? In Scotland 110,000 promised. Delivered - 20,000 and falling.
Yeah - come on Scotland, pull your finger out; I thought Nicola would have sorted this!
Biospace
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Re: Not giving my money to the fossel fuel industry

Post by Biospace »

mumbojumbo wrote: 12 Jan 2023, 7:27pm All acts of consumption ,with very few exceptions ,unwittingly condone the use of fossil fuels
1.farms and fertiisers
2.any item purchased in retail outlets
3.trainor bus journey
4.energy in the home
A better strategy is to become a shareholder and attend the AGM and question the board.
Several men are quoted along the lines that for evil to prosper it requires good people to do nothing and I think it was Martin Luther King Jr who said "If I cannot do great things, I can do small things in a great way".

I'm not suggesting oil companies are evil, but if we wish to see the oil consumption reduced significantly then expecting our governments to act for us will likely produce a less desirable outcome than if the population helps lead the way.

The food industry is responsible for over a quarter of the world's carbon emissions, those of health care industries is over 10% in the US and EU. What we eat and our long-term health are linked, we're long overdue for the "a stitch in time" approach to our health, rather than waiting for things to become critical before acting.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... lastic-sea
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... buses.html

People seem to have lost the desire to buy something of such quality that it will last decades, wearing in rather than out. Many have forgotten or don't know how properly to look after possesions, they simply discard and buy again. Recently I sold a 1991 car with over 400,000 miles and in the 250k I owned it, the only work needed beyond usual service items were repairs to the sunroof mechanism, front shock absorbers, a water pump, a couple of balljoints, rear suspension spheres and a pair of front wing panels. And only sold because I'm no longer driving huge distances.

For more than a decade, forecourt fuel was mostly needed for the lawnmower and chainsaw with only the odd drop for the cars - perhaps ten or fifteen gallons a year. The house was heated without grid electricity or gas for a similar period.
It's really not so difficult to organise personal motorised transport and reduce FF dependence, either with an electric car - Nissan Leafs were selling for £3000 four or five years ago - or running a conventional one on alternative fuels. Tyres are impossible to avoid, but I've noticed how so many modern cars wear through them very quickly. If they're lasting less than 30,000 miles on average, that's a huge amount of pollution and carbon emissions.

Buying something which is likely to last for well over a decade is a no-brainer. Buy second hand if you prefer - our AEG/Zanussi washing machine wasn't new, 12 years ago. It's worked hard with two children and still hasn't needed the drum bearing or belt replacing. I see people almost giving away TVs which cost hundreds not long ago simply because they're not 'Smart' (the TVs, that is). All that's needed to update it into something smarter than a new one is a small computer with bluetooth mouse and keyboard, a MacMini uses less than 20W and is very neat. Easier than ever, a little research goes a long way.
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