Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

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simonineaston
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by simonineaston »

re Buffalo system
for it to work properly purchase a snug fitting size and wear it next to your skin.
Absolutely - although most people are reluctant, one way or another, to follow the instructions. However, anyone who is any doubt about the efficacy of these garments can find a lot of info about them on military forums. They do work, but at the cost of some aspects that civilians may find difficult to cope with.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Gazelles
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by Gazelles »

I'm more a utility cyclist. I have Revolution Race whisper trouser and jacket. They protect very well against rain but on the jacket I have to use the vents under the arm pits and at the front to regulate air flow. What I like are my Wijld t-shirts made from Tencel/Lycel, that transport and evaporate sweat much better than cotton and don't start to smell quickly.
Some people like loden cloth for utilty cycling, water resistant to some degree and letting air through at a moderate rate.
It would be nice to have a jacket that is wind proof at the front but allows for at little air flow at the sides and back and water proof at the same time.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

PH wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 7:59pm
ed.lazda wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 7:40pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 7:14pm Or Paramo:
Thanks for the info. Interesting how, if you think enough about the problem you end up in a similar place. Practically all cycle clothing companies seem to have the very superficial approach of "Sweat? Just make it more breathable" which takes you to a very different end point.
A bit of research shows as many people hate it as love it, I don't get how the same thing can generate such differing opinions as to whether it works as claimed.
I have a non cycling Paramo jacket, which I sometimes cycle in. Not a good example as it's a couple of sizes to big, I knew that when I bought it, though it was ridiculously cheap. It's warm on the coldest days and there's plenty of room for stuff underneath, huge vents (Half the sleeve and almost down to the waist) means it's easy to regulate I'm not so convinced by it's wet weather performance, I have jackets I prefer, I try hard not to wear it in heavy rain, it soon wets out (despite several attempts at reproofing with Nikwax) and once wet it takes ages to dry.
I like my Paramo a lot but I can think of several reasons to dislike their jackets. As you've said, they are warm, and I think too warm for many people. The cut is also rather "Anglo-Saxon" ie big and flappy. And they're heavy compared to most of the competition. Then some of the colour schemes are... quite distinctive. However, I've never had problems with mine not being waterproof. But I rarely wear it for cycling, as it's a bit too warm and flappy. I don't know if the cycling-specific design (I think it's the Quito, but I might be wrong on that) is better in these respects. A final point in favour of Paramo, though it's quite personal, is that they have one of the few hood designs that works for me. And a final final one (sorry), which again doesn't really apply when cycling; the material tends to be much quieter than most waterproofs.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

simonineaston wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 8:42pm re Buffalo system
for it to work properly purchase a snug fitting size and wear it next to your skin.
Absolutely - although most people are reluctant, one way or another, to follow the instructions. However, anyone who is any doubt about the efficacy of these garments can find a lot of info about them on military forums. They do work, but at the cost of some aspects that civilians may find difficult to cope with.
I'm quite tempted to try this Buffalo stuff, but at the moment I don't really need another jacket.
hoogerbooger
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by hoogerbooger »

When I tour I usually take a waterproof jacket that is not so close fitting so I can get a fleece or down jacket undeneith it in the evening. After a while I deduced that when cycling on cold rainy days I needed to pull in the drawcords at the base which seemed to reduce the amount of condensed sweat produced. My closer fitting jacket used on day rides seems better...in the same material.

I suspect you are right that we will often sweat faster than any truly waterproof material can handle...so vents and design a big factor. So I think is good close fitting layers to Wick away from skin. I don't like merino as it dries too slowly for touring in miserable weather. I personally own about half of the Lifa base layers Helly Hansen ever made.....and have most of it on today to keep warm.

If it's any consolation running seems worse and I more or less gave up on water proofs and used pertex which I then sprayed with nikwax tx- direct. The pertex leggings come out with me a lot cycling as well on showery cold days and are great over tights.....but can't cope with persistent rain.
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freiston
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by freiston »

I have two windproof cycling jackets that I wear in the winter.

One is an Altura Varium, a waterproof jacket (got for the bargain price of £30 back in 2014 iirc) but which is a relatively thick material with a bit of stretch in it and looks and feels what I think a "regular" "lycra jacket" would feel like (though I don't have that sort of cycling apparel so I'm guessing). It doesn't look like a specifically waterproof jacket and has two generous pit zips. I almost always wear it with the pit zips fully open, doing them up only when the cold is striking or the precipitation is heavy.

In the English Midlands winters of late, I find it warm enough with a long-sleeved t-shirt underneath (I have many of varying thickness/insulating ability) and occasionally I supplement it with a cheap quilted hiking gilet from Decathlon, either under or over. The gilet can be removed if I get too hot, and both the gilet and jacket have front zips which often come down going uphill and go up going downhill.

The other is a Crane/Aldi special, for a similar price as the Altura at around the same time. The front panels, rear pocket panels and the arms (bar a small panel under the forearms) are windproof roubaix fleece but the back is a thin very breathable and not windproof roubaix fleece.

This jacket gets worn in combinations similar to the Varium but in the recent cold spell has been too warm with the gilet (I got quite sweaty unless I zipped down - then I got too cold) but without the gilet is fine as long as I keep working (I get cold quickly when I stop unless I get the gilet out of the bag and put it on) and I don't really need to use the zip much. In colder periods, I have worn it in combinations with fleece midlayers and/or quilted/shell outer jackets. With this jacket in the cold weather, I do find that I need a "warm up" period at the beginning of the ride. I tend to ride at a leisurely pace but I still sweat a lot.

With regards to waterproofing, if it's a short light shower etc. then I don't bother as long as I keep warm but if it's persistent/heavy, I use a "proper" cape, often with the jacket fully unzipped or removed. When the weather can't make its mind up and I'm getting a bit wet intermittently, I do like the Varium as it is very adjustable with its three zips and can be quite comfortable even in warmer weather.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
Tiberius
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by Tiberius »

rotavator wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 4:11pm What are you wearing beneath the jacket? I would suggest a merino wool base layer because they stay warm even when a bit sweaty, with a thin fleece as a mid layer. Obviously if you get too hot, take one of these layers off. Take an extra layer, may be another thin fleece, to add when you sit down outside a cafe, and remove it before you set off again because you will probably soon warm up.
FWIW - This is how I get through winter, all topped off with a Paramo Fuera Ascent windproof jacket - which is so good that they've stopped making it but I'm sure they will make an equivalent. Messing with the layering and the vents on the jacket keep me warm and dry, I hardly sweat even in hilly North Yorkshire.
gcogger
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by gcogger »

I think you need to be careful to distinguish between different 'windproof' fabrics, as they behave very differently when it comes to breathability. I'm excluding Paramo for the moment, as their waterproofs work differently to most other people's.
  • Waterproof fabrics are (obviously!) waterproof but you can easily get soaked by sweat inside the jacket as their breathability is the lowest of all these. I sweat a lot on a bike, so try not to use one.
  • Windproof fabrics like Gore-Tex Infinium. I've not used Infinium much, but have used the earlier windstopper fabric. I hated the old windstopper fabric - yes, it's quite water resistant, but doesn't breathe much better than decent waterproofs. I believe Infinium is better, but I suspect it's still not breathable enough to be worth considering if you sweat a lot. If the OP finds this too sweaty, I'd suggest trying the option below rather than dismissing all windproofs.
  • Traditional windproof fabrics like Pertex (e.g. as used in Buffalo tops). These are much, much more breathable than the above, but really not very water resistant. They can resist light showers if the DWR coating is working, but will wet through. You'll dry a lot quicker when the rain stops, however.
My preference is for the last of the 3 - a Pertex style windproof, coupled with appropriate layers below. If it's not too cold, I tend to use the ones with the non-windproof back. For me the layers beneath need to be synthetic and, preferably, directional (i.e. moisture is drawn to the outside of the fabric). I've used Merino wool, but find it gets soaked in sweat quickly and doesn't dry as fast as synthetics.
Even if it's raining a bit, I don't get any wetter than I would from sweat in a waterproof, and I'll dry out much quicker when the rain stops. If it's raining very heavily, I try not to go out on the bike!

Paramo kit is interesting - I'd say it's breathability is somewhere between my second and third options above. The main down side for me is the warmth. I run very warm, so it would have to be very cold for me to wear one. If it's that cold, it would probably be snowing not raining, so I'd prefer the Pertex style windproof and appropriate layers underneath.
ed.lazda
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by ed.lazda »

All very interesting, thanks to all contributors. Remarkably little support for the "conventional" (unvented windstopper/infinium) approach. I've just acquired cheaply from eBay a Buffalo "MTB cycle windshirt" -- essentially their cycle shirt without the pile lining -- and on first use it's noticeable how the moisture collects on the outside rather than the inside. I'm going to try this with varying amounts of insulation underneath, and see how that goes.
cycle tramp
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by cycle tramp »

..no they're not..
Which is why I wear (Shetland) wool jumpers when I cycle...
..breathable, warm, and antibacterial... how can the thousands of years of evolution which has gone into developing this stuff be wrong?
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NickJP
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by NickJP »

I just use a nylon windshell when the temperatures drop below freezing, and don't have any problems getting uncomfortable inside that. I see no need for water resistance in the fabric if it's not actually raining.
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geomannie
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by geomannie »

Windproof winter jackets are perhaps no good for you, for me they work really well. I guess it comes down to how much you sweat and physiology means that I don't sweat much unless it's pretty warm and humid.

2-3 merino base layers, a Goretex shell jacket & I'm sorted for most cool/damp days
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Sweep
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by Sweep »

geomannie wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 9:10am Windproof winter jackets are perhaps no good for you, for me they work really well. I guess it comes down to how much you sweat and physiology means that I don't sweat much unless it's pretty warm and humid.

2-3 merino base layers, a Goretex shell jacket & I'm sorted for most cool/damp days
2-3 base layers?
you must run very cold or stand still a lot?

If generally moving I find I am fine on coldest days (any day I am likely to cycle in) with a good top layer, base layer a brynje poly mesh thing with an aldi merino on top.

there is a company I think which does some hybrid thing combining mesh and merino, but I use two separate layers - being a meanie plus like the flexibility.
Sweep
mattheus
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by mattheus »

cycle tramp wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 7:37pm ..no they're not..
Which is why I wear (Shetland) wool jumpers when I cycle...
..breathable, warm, and antibacterial... how can the thousands of years of evolution which has gone into developing this stuff be wrong?
Ah, but did the development engineers ever do 3 miles uphill then downhill??
geocycle
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by geocycle »

Flexibility is key. I usually set off with a t-shirt or base layer, a merino or fleece layer and a goretex water proof. In sub 5 degrees I have two fleece/merino layers. After the first hill the waterproof often comes off and stays in reserve until the sun starts to go down. I have a endura fleece that does winter and lighter ones for autumn/early spring. I'd not want a jacket I couldn't take off and store during the middle parts of rides.
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