Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

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ed.lazda
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Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by ed.lazda »

Windproof and highly breathable, they say. Keep warm and dry while working hard in cold weather, they say. B*ll*cks, I say.

I have two winter jackets based on Goretex Infinium. I set off into the cold, and I am warm, with no noticeable wind chill. After a while, the sweat starts to build up, but I am still warm. Then I stop at the cafe and soon realise I am damp and getting cold. I warm up, but slowly, when I start riding again, but get increasingly damp.

My understanding is that Infinium (and similar membranes) transmit water mostly, if not entirely, as vapour. So to begin with, sweat is produced, evaporates, and exits via the membrane. If the rate of production is too high, the space inside the jacket rapidly becomes saturated with water vapour, further evaporation is inhibited, the cooling effect is reduced and the body increases sweat production to compensate. You end up with a soggy cyclist. All evaporation takes place within or inside the insulating fabrics, so the cyclist gets cold too.

It seems to me that you need a windproof fabric that wicks liquid water to the outside, so it can dry off in good air flow and low water vapour content, having some cooling effect without chilling off the cyclist too much and keeping the space inside relatively dry. This sounds very much like a Buffalo shirt, which I think will be the next thing for me to try.
mattheus
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by mattheus »

The eskimos have a saying:
"You sweat, you die."
rotavator
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by rotavator »

What are you wearing beneath the jacket? I would suggest a merino wool base layer because they stay warm even when a bit sweaty, with a thin fleece as a mid layer. Obviously if you get too hot, take one of these layers off. Take an extra layer, may be another thin fleece, to add when you sit down outside a cafe, and remove it before you set off again because you will probably soon warm up.
bluespeeder
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by bluespeeder »

They work for me. I have a thin pertex jacket which makes a big difference when the temperature drops, but you need to whip it off as soon as you feel you are getting hot. Todays ride between 5 and 6 degrees I didnt use it but when it drops below about 3 degrees I find it essential. It is also useful to carry in case of rain.
I go for the multi layer approach with up to 3 thin thermal layers with a cycling jacket over the top then windproof pertex if needed.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by roubaixtuesday »

For hilly areas when you both work hard up hills and have long descents with very high wind chill and no work, there's no such thing as a jacket sufficiently breathable to cope with winter cycling IME.

Further, jacket design is far more important than fabric. Specifically, vents make far more difference than material.

A fully windproof jacket is absolutely essential for descents.
Nearholmer
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by Nearholmer »

This is my standard cold weather set-up, and it seems to work, and allows de-layering if I get too hot. The key is that the top layer has good zipped vents on sleeves and body.
7FE85CE6-EB42-4BA4-B42C-352C0DBCD874.jpeg
I also carry a pack down “puffer jacket” in case of puncture or something necessitating a prolonged stop in an exposed spot.

A couple of weeks ago, I made the mistake of going out wearing a thick fleece under a very wind-proof, so not breathable, top layer, causing sweating and then chilling ….. bad idea, and potentially dangerous.
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SimonCelsa
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by SimonCelsa »

ed.lazda wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 3:44pm .................. This sounds very much like a Buffalo shirt, which I think will be the next thing for me to try.
Hopefully you'll not be disappointed. Remember though, for it to work properly purchase a snug fitting size and wear it next to your skin.
I wear mine regularly in freezing or near freezing conditions up here in the Highlands and find it does the job. I usually do a longish (upto 50 miles) ride on a Sunday morning at a steady pace and even when sweating I don't find it cold or uncomfortable. Remember to keep all vents and pockets closed in really cold conditions and tighten the collar / cuff velcro fastenings. It's surprising the difference it makes to the performance of the jacket by leaving the collar or cuffs even a little bit slack.

My buffalo is an older one, not sure if it's a special 6 or mountain shirt. Probably over 20 years old and now starting to show it's age a bit. Wear it with a Tilley hat for full insulation from even the most severe Arctic blast!!
ed.lazda
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by ed.lazda »

Thanks for the replies so far.
rotavator wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 4:11pm What are you wearing beneath the jacket? I would suggest a merino wool base layer...
The best combination I've found is a Nordic Life technical "string vest" plus a merino layer. I find that even merino gets chilly if it gets sufficiently damp. I also can't be bothered with stopping to take layers on & off -- "own worst enemy" springs to mind. :D
bluespeeder wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 4:28pm They work for me. I have a thin pertex jacket ...
My understanding is that pertex works in the way I think should work best -- i.e., it wicks liquid water to the outside, rather than transmitting vapour.
roubaixtuesday wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 4:37pm Specifically, vents make far more difference than material.
Nearholmer wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 4:40pm The key is that the top layer has good zipped vents on sleeves and body.
Neither of the jackets I have is vented. You'd think designers might understand about this, but maybe I'm over optimistic. :roll:
SimonCelsa wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 4:42pm Hopefully you'll not be disappointed.
It's OK, I'm used to it :) . Both of the jackets I've got are good makes, one expensive, the other even more so even thought it was half price in a sale. They may appear elsewhere on this forum in due course.
PH
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by PH »

Much of this has already been covered. IMO It's impossible to get it right all the time, even with a very varied wardrobe, but if you're getting it wrong a lot of the time there are improvements to be made. I've found garment vents and design to be more important than fabrics, then what you wear underneath, then when you wear it. I expect to be a bit cold setting off, if I'm warm for the first mile, I'm going to be too warm after five. Once I'm too warm, I have to release some heat, either by opening up or removing. That has to be done straight away, leaving it to the cafe in half an hour can be too late, I might not get back into that comfort zone. Part of this is the convenience of adding and removing - if you have stuff you can take off and stuff somewhere without getting off the bike, you're more likely to do it. In the winter I don't like stopping for long, I find it hard to adjust between riding, sitting in a cafe and back to riding, without it taking ages to get comfortable again.
The answer to a lot of this is a gillet, I resisted getting one for years, sceptical that such a small item could make much difference, but it does.
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531colin
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by 531colin »

I can sweat a lot faster than Goretex can get rid of it.
3 things that work for me.....

Pertex....already mentioned, as said its very high wicking. You can watch (light) rain landing on the jacket, spreading out and evaporating.
In persistent rain my arms get cold....same amount of water landing, but less heat?....anyway, it happens, however weird.

Paramo. The claims made for it are staggering, but largely true. If you are going to get seriously rained on, do it in Paramo. (I feel I could do better than them with the design of the jacket, but thats another thing! I find it hot.....use the vents.

A jacket with a windproof front (arms, shoulders) but permeable back.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

ed.lazda wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 3:44pm It seems to me that you need a windproof fabric that wicks liquid water to the outside, so it can dry off in good air flow and low water vapour content, having some cooling effect without chilling off the cyclist too much and keeping the space inside relatively dry. This sounds very much like a Buffalo shirt, which I think will be the next thing for me to try.
Or Paramo:
Directionality in fabric means “the ability of the fabric or the fabric system to move liquid water to where you want it”. Liquid water? Isn’t all water liquid? Well, actually, no! Water dissolves in air in relatively small quantities to form moisture vapour. Most people who own an Outdoor jacket these days know about Moisture Vapour Transmission fabrics, or, in other words, breathable membranes. The theory goes that these fabrics can transmit the evaporated sweat from our bodies.
So, water exists in three forms: LIQUID, which we drink and which we feel as condensation inside our garments, VAPOUR, which we cannot see, but which surrounds all of us, and ICE – frozen water, which we find building up on the inside of breathable membranes in extremely cold conditions.
Why would you want to move liquid water within a fabric, instead of moisture vapour? The answer is quite simple; it is much more efficient to move liquid water. Why? Because liquid water occupies so much less space than water vapour – in fact even fully water saturated air at 20 degrees centigrade contains less than 1/70,000 of the amount of water than the same volume of liquid water. Therefore, if you want to move water, moving it as a liquid has to be more efficient than moving it as moisture vapour.
What benefits does directionality® bring?
Directionality is all about comfort. We all know that we sweat, and we sweat to cool down. Evaporation of sweat, or the transition of liquid water to moisture vapour, absorbs a very large amount of energy and keeps us cool.
So, sweating is good, until we sweat too much, and end up wet. Being wet is problematic because it feels uncomfortable, but even more problematic because it stops our clothing from being able to insulate us. Why? The classic problem in the mountains is to first be too hot, and sweat, and soon after be much too cold. The reason is quite simple, liquid water, that is, sweat or condensation, transmits heat 20 times more effectively than still air. So if we replace the air in our clothing with sweat, condensation or rainwater, we lose 95 per cent of our insulation.
Therefore the challenge in the outdoors, in potentially cool conditions, is to maintain plenty of still, dry air around our bodies, and to avoid it being replaced with water.
One answer to the water problem is to try to use body heat to evaporate any excess water in our clothing systems. But that quickly cools us down too much. A far better answer is for the clothing to move the water to where we need it, which in cooler conditions, is always away from us, and therefore to protect our insulation. DIRECTIONAL fabrics are designed to move liquid water to where we need it to be.
Nikwax has created directional fabric systems which are highly efficient at moving liquid water. Páramo has ingeniously made use of these systems to produce high performance outdoor clothing.
Páramo directional clothing systems are better at keeping you cool when you need to be, and better at keeping you warm in cool conditions. It is that simple. Fabric breathability on its own is not enough – directionality is essential to avoid a build up of water in your clothing when you are working hard. Too much moisture in your clothing will lead to sudden and rapid cooling when you stop and rest.
https://www.paramo-clothing.com/en-gb/p ... echnology/
ed.lazda
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by ed.lazda »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 7:14pm Or Paramo:
Thanks for the info. Interesting how, if you think enough about the problem you end up in a similar place. Practically all cycle clothing companies seem to have the very superficial approach of "Sweat? Just make it more breathable" which takes you to a very different end point.
softlips
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by softlips »

I have a Goretex ShakeDry for when the heavens open. I asked the Goretex rep when I was buying it if i'd sweat. The very lovely young lady said at a cruising or commuting pace I should remain dry. Up the effort and the fabric would struggle to allow the sweat through. It was a fair, honest statement. I obviously bought one and it performs just as she said.
PH
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by PH »

ed.lazda wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 7:40pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 7:14pm Or Paramo:
Thanks for the info. Interesting how, if you think enough about the problem you end up in a similar place. Practically all cycle clothing companies seem to have the very superficial approach of "Sweat? Just make it more breathable" which takes you to a very different end point.
A bit of research shows as many people hate it as love it, I don't get how the same thing can generate such differing opinions as to whether it works as claimed.
I have a non cycling Paramo jacket, which I sometimes cycle in. Not a good example as it's a couple of sizes to big, I knew that when I bought it, though it was ridiculously cheap. It's warm on the coldest days and there's plenty of room for stuff underneath, huge vents (Half the sleeve and almost down to the waist) means it's easy to regulate I'm not so convinced by it's wet weather performance, I have jackets I prefer, I try hard not to wear it in heavy rain, it soon wets out (despite several attempts at reproofing with Nikwax) and once wet it takes ages to dry.
slowster
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Re: Windproof winter jackets are no good for cycling. Discuss.

Post by slowster »

ed.lazda wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 5:28pm I also can't be bothered with stopping to take layers on & off
In that case the alternative is to wear enough layers that you will feel cold for the first ten to twenty minutes or so of riding, i.e. until the increase in body heat generated by the exertion of riding takes effect and warms you up to a comfortable equilibrium temperature.

Even with Paramo you should do the same, otherwise you will find yourself hot and sweaty in that as well.

Ironically, one of the best garments for managing temperature control, allowing sweat to evaporate and stopping windchill, was the old racing style zipped acrylic top with a nylon shell over the front and shoulders (and usually the arms), with just a plain knitted acrylic back.
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