Atriall Fibrillation

Jdsk
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Re: Atrial Fibrillation

Post by Jdsk »

axel_knutt wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 12:47am ...
One of the paramedics listened to my heart with a stethoscope and described it as 'tympanic'. I've never been able to find any explanation of that term anywhere, but I knew exactly what he meant, because that's how it felt: hollow and resonant like a drum, and not the usual dull thud.
I'm not familiar with its use in auscultation of the heart. It is used for sounds coming from the abdomen, and particularly the stomach.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percussio ... ine)#Notes

Jonathan
pete75
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Re: Atrial Fibrillation

Post by pete75 »

Jdsk wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 10:05am
axel_knutt wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 12:47am ...
One of the paramedics listened to my heart with a stethoscope and described it as 'tympanic'. I've never been able to find any explanation of that term anywhere, but I knew exactly what he meant, because that's how it felt: hollow and resonant like a drum, and not the usual dull thud.
I'm not familiar with its use in auscultation of the heart. It is used for sounds coming from the abdomen, and particularly the stomach.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percussio ... ine)#Notes

Jonathan
It's certainly used by vets to describe heart sounds https://veteriankey.com/eighteen-murmur ... rt-sounds/.

A tympanic S2 may also be heard in patients with severe pulmonary hypertension. “Fixed” splitting of S2 occurs with atrial septal defects (ASDs). Unlike patients with pulmonary hypertension, the interval between A2 and P2 does not vary with the phase of respiration (Ettinger and Suter 1970; Sisson and Ettinger 1999; Braunwald and Perloff 2005; Prosek 2005).
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
thirdcrank
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Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by thirdcrank »

cc1085 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 5:49pm
Jdsk wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 5:42pm Thread from 2020:
viewtopic.php?t=142359
including some personal experiences and the NHS advice.

Have you discussed this with your doctor?

Jonathan
Thanks Jonathan, yes I've been to hospital (last wed.) and had all the tests to confirm and been prescribed blood thinners. I have to attend at doctor's on this Monday. Just went for a medical to renew driving licence and it was detected then
May I be nosey and ask about the bit I've highlighted?

I've renewed my "over 70" driving licence several times and I've never done anything more than (truthfully) confirm that I've not been diagnosed with any of the "reportable" conditions. I have Type 2 diabetes and angina for which I take a load of medication and have routine check-ups.
re_cycler
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Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by re_cycler »

Reading through the linked papers there plenty of reference to endurance sport. What I didn't see is a definition to what is considered endurance. In this case should I assume it is defined as an extended time spent at Zone 3 heart rate zone or above ?
The other thing I couldn't determine was whether as a group the increased risk of atriall fibrillation also came with a decreased risk in other negative medical conditions.
Jdsk
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Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by Jdsk »

re_cycler wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 4:19pm Reading through the linked papers there plenty of reference to endurance sport. What I didn't see is a definition to what is considered endurance. In this case should I assume it is defined as an extended time spent at Zone 3 heart rate zone or above ?
The other thing I couldn't determine was whether as a group the increased risk of atriall fibrillation also came with a decreased risk in other negative medical conditions.
I've put some more recent reviews here:
viewtopic.php?p=1751355#p1751355

Jonathan
re_cycler
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Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by re_cycler »

Jdsk wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 4:23pm
re_cycler wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 4:19pm Reading through the linked papers there plenty of reference to endurance sport. What I didn't see is a definition to what is considered endurance. In this case should I assume it is defined as an extended time spent at Zone 3 heart rate zone or above ?
The other thing I couldn't determine was whether as a group the increased risk of atriall fibrillation also came with a decreased risk in other negative medical conditions.
I've put some more recent reviews here:
viewtopic.php?p=1751355#p1751355

Jonathan
Thanks Jonathan, they were some of the ones I read. What I couldn't see was any suggestion of the level of effort, even worse when it's just termed mixed sports.
Jdsk
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Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by Jdsk »

See you over there...

Jonathan
axel_knutt
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Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by axel_knutt »

pete75 wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 9:56am Yes, diagnosed in 2014. Didn't know I had it until discovered in a routine blood pressure check
If the electrical activity passes from the atria through the AV node to the ventricles you get tachycardia, known as Fast AF, and you wouldn’t be in any doubt if you had that. Any heart rate over 150bpm is a ticket to resus on the red telephone, and my record HR from the days when I was still un-medicated is 260bpm. If I tried to stand up like that I was on the verge of passing out.
re_cycler wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 4:19pmReading through the linked papers there plenty of reference to endurance sport. What I didn't see is a definition to what is considered endurance. In this case should I assume it is defined as an extended time spent at Zone 3 heart rate zone or above ?
There is no standardised definition, because it’s not known. From the ESC Guidelines you posted on the other thread:

“Exercise and atrial fibrillation. The threshold lifetime sports activity for increasing the risk of developing AF is unknown. It is also unknown whether ongoing participation in vigorous exercise at the same intensity after successful AF ablation is associated with a higher risk of AF recurrence.”

There’s a catch-22: it’s difficult to get accurate study results if you can’t separate study & control groups reliably and it’s difficult to separate the groups accurately without knowing the threshold that divides them. If you read some papers about exercise and arrhythmia you’ll see the details of the groups in each one.

Some examples:

2012 Calvo et al: Atrial fibrillation and atrial flutter in athletes.
found 63% of LAF patients who had a history of 3hr/wk of sport for 2yr, compared with just 15% of non-AF controls.

2011 Wilhelm et al: AF and Lifetime Training Hours in Non-elite Athletes
This is a study of 60 non-elite runners stratified according to lifetime training hours (<1500,1500-4500, and >4500). Various biological parameters were measured and compared between groups: “Signal-averaged P-wave analysis can detect intra-atrial conduction delay and has been used in patients with and without structural heart disease to predict risk of AF”, this was significantly higher in the high activity group. “square root of mean squared differences of successive normal-to-normal RR intervals (RMSSD) is an accepted measurement of vagal activity in athletes”, this was also significantly higher in the high activity group. Prevalence of AF was found to be 13 times that of a sedentary population.

2009 Mont et al: Endurance sport practice as a risk factor for AF and atrial flutter.
Defines an athlete as >3hr/wk for >10yr, sport increases risk of AF, odds ratio 5.06 to 8.80. Activity increases risk whether recreational or occupational. Results are suggestive of a threshold effect at around 1500 lifetime hours.

2008 Mont: Physical activity, height, and atrial fibrillation.
Conclusion is that accumulated lifetime physical activity (work or play), height, and left atrial size are risk factors for LAF in healthy middle-aged individuals
Moderate exercise:
>6626h increases risk 23 fold,
139-6625h 6.5 fold.
Heavy exercise:
OR=1.8 @ <564h,
OR=7.3 @ >564h. (My lifetime hours are 8300!)
Intensity definitions:
Sedentary: No physical effort.
Light: No increase in heart rate.
Moderate: Light sweating.
Heavy: “Vigorous” (>6 METs)

2008 Molina: Long-term endurance sport increases the incidence of LAF.
Sport is found to be a risk factor for LAF, with a hazard ratio of 8.80. Sedentary is defined as <300kcal/day.

2006 Warburton et al: Review: Health benefits of physical activity.
The fit and active enjoy a 50% reduction in risk of death from any cause. Activity of 1000kcal/wk reduces mortality by 20%. Relative risk of no exercise approaches that of smoking. Effect is graded; small increases in activity also reduce risk. 1600kcal/wk (230kcal/day) is effective at halting coronary artery disease.

2006 Elosua et al: Sport practice and the risk of lone atrial fibrillation.
Current sport practice was associated with a higher prevalence of LAF (OR = 3.13). More than 1500 lifetime hours of sport appears to be the threshold. >1500 h was associated with LAF (OR = 2.87).
re_cycler wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 4:19pmThe other thing I couldn't determine was whether as a group the increased risk of atriall fibrillation also came with a decreased risk in other negative medical conditions.
The exercise recommendation for health is 1000 METmins/wk which would be 150mins @ 6.5 METS (~11mph cycling), that’s waaay below what a typical cycling enthusiast is likely to be doing. You can see why it’s been set at that level though, there’s a law of diminishing returns, with little health benefit to be had from doing more:
ArGeb.png
I was doing about 5-6 times the recommended exercise level.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
re_cycler
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Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by re_cycler »

Thank you for putting together that detailed reply it was really helpful.
Tim Holman
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Joined: 1 Aug 2020, 9:51am

Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by Tim Holman »

Oh, goodness, this has gone way beyond me on my Dawes with a dicky heart!
Tim
pete75
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Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by pete75 »

axel_knutt wrote: 26 Jan 2023, 12:02am
pete75 wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 9:56am Yes, diagnosed in 2014. Didn't know I had it until discovered in a routine blood pressure check
If the electrical activity passes from the atria through the AV node to the ventricles you get tachycardia, known as Fast AF, and you wouldn’t be in any doubt if you had that. Any heart rate over 150bpm is a ticket to resus on the red telephone, and my record HR from the days when I was still un-medicated is 260bpm. If I tried to stand up like that I was on the verge of passing out.

Despite what you say I definitely have AF. This was confirmed by a cardiology appointment and tests at Papworth Hospital.

Going to A&E around here within any potentially dangerous heart rate would be pointless , ambulances stacked up 6 or 7 deep outside so it'd take hours to be seen. Same with a heart attack - in France medics believe the emergency treatment you receive in the first hour after it is very important for survival.. UK medics think it fine to have a 4 hour target for any treatment in A&E.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
cc1085
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Joined: 8 Feb 2015, 11:41pm

Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by cc1085 »

Hi All,
I have an appointment for echo cardiogram on 15th Feb. So things are moving and will let you all know the outcome. Thank you all for all the information and the research.
Thom
Tim Holman
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Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by Tim Holman »

Hello, Thom, echocardiogram is an amazing experience...Your Heart Live on a Screen Beside You. Beats even Winterwatch, Good luck,
Tim
rualexander
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Re: Atriall Fibrillation

Post by rualexander »

pete75 wrote: 27 Jan 2023, 4:18pm [Same with a heart attack - in France medics believe the emergency treatment you receive in the first hour after it is very important for survival.. UK medics think it fine to have a 4 hour target for any treatment in A&E.
I'm sure they believe that here too, I doubt if they consider it fine to have a 4 hour target for any treatment in A&E.
But unfortunately that is the constraints under which they have to work due to political decision making.
In any case, I believe an urgent condition like a heart attack would be triaged up the waiting list if at all possible.
Jdsk
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Re: Atrial Fibrillation

Post by Jdsk »

The "four hour target" in England was never for "any treatment". It was/is for admission, transfer or discharge.

Jonathan
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