Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

[531colin]

Can you do this?....maintain your (hoods) position without touching the bars, or are you propping up your torso with your hands?

No. Not and ride as well.

It's all to do with front geometry as Slowster suggests, but I would add that it is something to do with body-shape too.

In the picture its fairly clear I'm on a turbo trainer, but on my bikes I can ride like that no hands. (I prefer relatively stable steering)

i think body shape should govern the shape of the bicycle, not the riders balance on the bike.

[slowster]

I don't doubt 531colin is right about saddle position and resulting weight distribtion, but it would be interesting to compare the front end geometries of the two bikes (reach, head angle and fork offset).

Reach clearly effects riding position and your balance on the bike, but I can't think how head angle and fork offset would?

Given the OP's comments about "wherever the bars are at...I feel petrified on certain steep downward surfaces", I am wondering if there are any significant differences between the two bikes in the steering/trail.

[531colin]

Just a bit of an update on this, and thanks all for getting back to me.

Firstly I will try and get some pics of myself on the bike asap, as you can imagine I'm struggling with the practicalities of that, but know this would help a lot so will certainly try for these.

@Colin531, am I talking to the Colin who produced the article I mentioned in my OP? If so, I suddenly feel star struck somehow. Bravo, and special thanks indeed for your response.

I just have a further question relating to foot position when cycling downhill. I have always gravitated toward a six o clock position when freewheeling downwards and on my ride this evening noticed some resistance to using my foot on the lower pedal as an anchor - I think I read somewhere that going downhill should ideally be a 2:45/9:15 type thing and have been aiming for that - but realised just how much weight comes off my hands when I instead let it rest on my right (preferred foot).

If that makes sense...

Are there problems associated with this or is it just standard?

Yeah, its my article. Hope you find it useful.

[531colin]

In response to several people;

I like to keep the pedals horizontal on bumpy stuff, if you put weight on just one pedal you are immediately unbalancing the bike.

I can't ever remember being flexible enough to be able to go down on the drops and get my weight back!

[531colin]

Hard to tell from the pictures, (one with the bikes next to each other so the distance from saddle to hoods can be compared). But i suspect that the reach from saddle to hoods on the grey triban is greater than on the blue bike. In which case you could be throwing too much weight on the hands and taking the bumps into the arms rather than through the legs.

THIS^^^^
I have been looking at the pictures.......
I don't know how big that Triban is, but its got about a 100mm stem and half a yard of seatpost showing.

Give us some numbers;
I am 5' 10" or thereabouts.
My saddle top is about 700mm above the BB axle, measured along the seat tube, bars at the same height
Its about 750mm from my bum bone dent to the bar boss.
saddle nose is about 70mm behind BB axle.

[531colin]

Foot position when descending, for me, depends on the descent. If it’s just a straightforward downhill, then I’ll have my feet in the 3 O’Clock/9 O’Clock position. If it’s a twisty descent, then I’ll have them in the 12 O’Clock/6 O’Clock position, with the inside pedal (the one on the side you are leaning towards) being the higher and the outside pedal being lower.

*My underline.
^^This^^.A technique used by Mountain Bikers for optimum grip when cornering.I use it on the roads too.

I think I have seen that argued the other way.......ie. you get more grip with the low pedal on the inside of the bend (where there is a danger of grounding)

[Jupestar]

I would suggest that the different techniques for foot position, mainly refer to decending single track berms, and decents on the alps. and are mainly focused on maximising grip and confidence at high speed.

For what its worth, on a MTB I generally keep my feet 9 and 3, that way i can quickly push off the back and pump out the berms. On a road decent it's 12 and 6 with the inside leg at the 12, its a bit unnatural for me so i have to think about it, but it allows me to stick out a knee to form a sort of outrigger.

If i'm on a track where its inevitable i'm putting my foot down, i'm 12 and 6 with the inside leg at 6.

I would guess that the OP problem, is nothing to do with foot position or left and right weight distribution. Its that the weight is for some reason on the front tyre and all the bumps are being felt up the fork and into the arms, making it feel like they will lose the handlebars. If you ride a bike down a flight of steps, you will find it much easier if you find a way to get the weight on the back wheel. True on a MTB or TT bike. its just much easier to do on a MTB as the geometry allows you to get back easier.

[PedallingSquares]

Foot position when descending, for me, depends on the descent. If it’s just a straightforward downhill, then I’ll have my feet in the 3 O’Clock/9 O’Clock position. If it’s a twisty descent, then I’ll have them in the 12 O’Clock/6 O’Clock position, with the inside pedal (the one on the side you are leaning towards) being the higher and the outside pedal being lower.

*My underline.
^^This^^.A technique used by Mountain Bikers for optimum grip when cornering.I use it on the roads too.

I think I have seen that argued the other way.......ie. you get more grip with the low pedal on the inside of the bend (where there is a danger of grounding)

By having the low pedal on the inside your weight is pushing the tyres outwards=less contact.Low pedal outside your weight pushes against the tyre's natural tendency to want to slide=more contact.There's been lots of tests over the years in Mountain bike mags and that's the conclusion and the reason most Downhillers use that method.It works especially well when you're running back tyres at 18-22psi.
TBH I've not noticed what the Pro-Peloton does but I will now watch with interest.I know I can go faster and feel a lot safer when cornering with 12 o'clock pedal opposite the lean angle especially on the long, fast, twisty descents you get in France/Spain.

[Nearholmer]

If you’ve got your “outside” foot/pedal down, you can swing your inside knee in/out to get better control on corners too, in fact it’s about the only way to make really tight corners.

[mattheus]

"outside pedal down for better grip" is one of those "accepted truths" that I've never been happy with!

It's not important, because I can't see any drawbacks to doing it. But as a (lapsed) physicist, I can't visualise what forces are making this work. And I can't see it being explained using text on an internet forum - it's a blackboard job!

And is hanging out the inside knee consistent with this idea??

Anyway, if you cruise along in a straight-ish line with a pedal at 6O'clock, it just looks wrong - 3&9 just looks right. This even applies in a town square!

[Jdsk]

"outside pedal down for better grip" is one of those "accepted truths" that I've never been happy with!

It's not important, because I can't see any drawbacks to doing it. But as a (lapsed) physicist, I can't visualise what forces are making this work. And I can't see it being explained using text on an internet forum - it's a blackboard job!

And is hanging out the inside knee consistent with this idea??
...

I'd also be interested in an explanation.

Is it about shifting the mass of the rider sideways?

Thanks

Jonathan

[zenitb]

In response to several people;

I like to keep the pedals horizontal on bumpy stuff, if you put weight on just one pedal you are immediately unbalancing the bike.

Good strat - agree with that.

I can't ever remember being flexible enough to be able to go down on the drops and get my weight back!

Seriously? Blimey, I am Mr Inflexible and I can mange it Colin. I will spare you a pic of me in lycra though and instead defer to the pros...

Thats the way to do it !!!

I suspect this comes more naturally to cyclists with an MTB background, where moving your weight behind the saddle on steep decents is a technique you learn very early on. It prevents you going over the bars if you have to brake heavily as well.

Braking heavily - weight back

[Bmblbzzz]

I don't doubt 531colin is right about saddle position and resulting weight distribtion, but it would be interesting to compare the front end geometries of the two bikes (reach, head angle and fork offset).

Reach clearly effects riding position and your balance on the bike, but I can't think how head angle and fork offset would?

Perhaps not either head angle or fork offset individually, but the two combined along with wheel size give a front wheel that is nearer or further from the rider's centre of mass and thus carrying more or less weight.

[PedallingSquares]

"outside pedal down for better grip" is one of those "accepted truths" that I've never been happy with!
It's not important, because I can't see any drawbacks to doing it. But as a (lapsed) physicist, I can't visualise what forces are making this work. And I can't see it being explained using text on an internet forum - it's a blackboard job!
And is hanging out the inside knee consistent with this idea??
...

I'd also be interested in an explanation.
Is it about shifting the mass of the rider sideways?
Thanks
Jonathan

https://www.smartercycling.cc/corners/p ... ing-turns/

Cornering on the racing bike involves three objectives:
bochten natuurkundig• Handling the centrifugal force
• Control and carrying as much speed as possible at the exit
• Make quick adjustments

In this, the following factors play a role:
• bank angle with respect to the road surface.
• your body’s center of gravity (BCG) in the horizontal plane, just above or far away from the point of contact of the wheels with the road surface.
• The height of your BCG relative to the road surface.

For a curve with radius (r) and bicycle speed (v), the bank angle (theta) of the fixed center of gravity is given by: theta = arctan (v ^ 2 / g). Given this inclination, you can freely vary the relative position of the bike and rider.

You can make quick corrections on your line by playing with the position of your body. This can be done by pushing your knee into the turn. You can also make small adjustments quickly by buckling to a greater or lesser extend with the ski-turn. In the video about Cancellara you can see this clearly.
If you ride a curve with the ski-trun you can make minor corrections faster than with the classic turn.

By the kinks in the skihouding less mass goes sharply through the bend, but a part of it takes a wider curve. Thus, you need to compensate less centrifugal force.

To lean out with your upper body, you get more perpendicular pressure on the front wheel and therefore more control. This can compensate for the horizontal force to the outside as a result of the centrifugal forces. This reduces the chance of slipping. This enhances the effect of pressing down the outside of pedal.

When entering a curve you use consciously or unconsciously ‘to sweep’, ie first to send before you “fall” to the desired side. See Curve Work

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/1186 ... -cornering

Cornering is an essential skill for any cyclist. Although being a better bike handler can help you win races, the main reason to learn to corner correctly (or rather safely) is because it could save your neck. Although it is possible for you to come off your bike while riding in a straight line, it’s more likely to happen when you’re going round a bend.

We've covered the science of cornering, such as how far you can safely lean before - read How far can you lean a bike in a corner, plus pro tips on cornering perfection but how do you translate that into practical, real-world advice? Like all techniques, it’s a process that can be learned and then perfected with repeated practice. Here are a few pointers on how to do it right…
The approach

As you approach a corner, check around you for movement of traffic or other riders. When you’re confident the road is clear, move out towards the middle of the road. This will dramatically improve your cornering angle, giving you more width to negotiate the turn in a smooth arc. The tighter your entrance angle on the approach, the more difficult cornering becomes. In wet conditions, you should be looking further up the road than usual, and when approaching a corner, look out for things on the road surface that can adversely affect grip like oil, mud or loose gravel – all lethal in the wet.
Changing Gear

As you approach the corner, as well as braking, change down to a lower gear. This should be a gear that you can comfortably exit the corner on. It’s no good pedalling into a corner on 53x12, forgetting to change gear and then grinding almost to a halt as you struggle to accelerate out the other side.
Riding Position

Cornering is often a lot easier if you’re riding in the drop position on your handlebars. You have easier access to your brakes, your arms are more relaxed here (as long as you keep them bent), and your weight is lower and easier to shift, too. The lower centre of gravity also means you can go faster more safely.
Braking
Giant TCR Advanced SL braking

As you approach the corner, cover your brake levers and start reducing your speed. Your biggest potential danger when cornering is approaching too fast and then having your brakes lock up as you grab at them in a moment of panic. It’s far better to have to let go of the brakes a bit than to grab them hard and risk crashing. That said, try not to brake too early ahead of the turn and lose all your speed.
Shift your weight

When you’re a few metres from the corner, lift your foot closest to the corner side so your pedal is up. This will improve your balance and weight distribution and prevent your pedals from hitting the road. Distribute your weight so that it pushes down through the leg furthest from the corner (which will be down) as this helps balance and improve tight grip by forcing the tires onto the road. Keep your upper body loose as stiffening up can make the bike drift. This is especially true in wet or icy conditions, when you’ll also need to be wary of leaning – don’t lean as much as you do in the dry.
Head position
Stelvio corner

Your head should be up at all times, looking ahead, not at the road surface two metres ahead of your front wheel. Doing this prevents you from taking a smooth line through the corner. Your eyes need to be parallel to the horizon and looking through the apex of the corner towards the point at which you want to exit. This way you’ll ride towards where you’re looking. Look away from this line and you’ll most likely drift in that direction as a result. Concentration is the key.
Exiting the corner

As you come out of the corner, don’t straighten the bike up to soon – do it gradually. Stay in your cornering position until you’re fully out the other side. Don’t start pedalling too soon either, as you’ll probably hit your pedal on the road. Only start pedalling again as the bike starts to right itself.

I've looked at other websites and the consensus is common.Outside foot down pushing weight onto that foot.

[Nearholmer]

can't visualise what forces are making this work.

I’ve always wondered, and I think it is because with the bike included slightly to the inside it puts the line of force resulting from rider mass normal to the ground at a point directly between the two tyre contact points.

Hanging a knee out, or pulling it in, alters the centre of gravity subtly I think, allowing one to control the rate of rotation around a notional fixed point, rather like spinning on a playground roundabout and moving in or out from the centre point t control speed, which works by preservation of kinetic energy.

Whatever the physics may be, bothe techniques work in practice.