Overtaking

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
cycle tramp
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Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

Jdsk wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 5:08pm She made a bad judgement and put several people at risk. We have no idea whether she ever drives a car or not.

Jonathan
A bit like some motorists then... :-)
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cycle tramp
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Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

Jdsk wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:45pm
PS: If I understand the comments below the video many watchers concluded that she contacted the bars of the rider in the middle.
It's possible, another likelihood is that the other rider was so surprised to see her so close he had a bit of a wobble- I know I would, there's sound on the video and there's not a bell ping or anything to let the other rider know of her intention. Either way this clip shows the dangers of overtaking too close, which is why the overtaking space of 1.5 metres has been used.
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Pebble
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Re: Overtaking

Post by Pebble »

slowster wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:07pm
The video below shows a particularly narrow section of a London Cycling Superhighway. Ignoring the crash that occurred, even when there are no oncoming cyclists the lane is simply not wide enough for 1.5m clearance when overtaking.
then don't overtake, and if you must, then do so only at a slightly faster pace and knowing that the person you are about to overtake knows that you are going to do so.

as for the video
The woman that caused that crash should have waited until it was safe to overtake - I hope the police prosecuted her for dangerous riding. (or furious riding if that is the appropriate charge for cyclists)
cycle tramp
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Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

Jdsk wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:48pm
cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 9:48am ...
This is for both your safety and mine (if you collide with me when we are both cycling and I am well enough to get up, bad things are going to happen. If you collide with me and I get up and you are already seriously hurt (bearing in mind that I'm usually carrying 18 kgs of luggage, use a heavy duty touring bike frame, together with over built wheels) it doesn't get any better as I usually don't have a mobile phone on me to call for help)
...
I've read this a few times... what "bad things" are going to happen after the collision?

Thanks

Jonathan
Actually following Pebbles post, the bad thing is that should you fail to overtake me at the required 1.5 metres with the result being a collision I shall refer the matter to the cyclist defence team and seek numeration for all damages and injuries sustained. The plaintiff may of course use the cycle defence team as legal defence. Sltories will be sold to the Daily Mail and Express with all proceeds going back to the cyclist defence fund... at which point the laws of physics may have shown to be broken as the world's first perpetual engine will have been theoretically been created :-)
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Overtaking

Post by Bmblbzzz »

cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 5:27pm
Jdsk wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:45pm
PS: If I understand the comments below the video many watchers concluded that she contacted the bars of the rider in the middle.
It's possible, another likelihood is that the other rider was so surprised to see her so close he had a bit of a wobble- I know I would, there's sound on the video and there's not a bell ping or anything to let the other rider know of her intention. Either way this clip shows the dangers of overtaking too close, which is why the overtaking space of 1.5 metres has been used.
Probably not much point pinging or calling in that situation. Look at the number of cyclists and the number of overtakes; it would be a continual stream of pings and shouts. Confusing, distracting and noisy. It's a good example of a situation in which you would expect to be continually overtaken – or constantly overtaking, depending on your speed. One of the things I think the woman in pink did wrong was to overtake the man in white just as he was about to overtake another rider in front – look how far out he is already. (He, of course, was also in the wrong for overtaking without a shoulder glance; and come to that, the second oncoming rider, who comes off in turn, was following the initial offee too closely. A lot of wrongs and they don't make a right, but people individually get away with them most of the time, so it continues.)
Biospace
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Re: Overtaking

Post by Biospace »

While the fault is very clearly that of the overtaking cyclist, I'm unconvinced of the safety of two way bicycle commuting traffic on paths, even when a little wider than this. Two people riding sharp objects with closing speeds of up to 50mph or eve n a bit more and only 1.5m apart is dangerous.

Would good mirrors have helped prevent this?
cycle tramp
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Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

THREAD DRIFT ALERT!
To be fair I think everyone's going to take something different from that video. Speaking personally, I find the behaviour exhibited on that cyclepath no less rude and hostile and arrogant than some of the behaviour I have faced on some A and B roads from drivers of motorised vehicles.
I am utterly disappointed that the more relaxed style of European community, where lower speeds and more ringing of bells hasn't been fostered, especially as its been proven that to move more people safety requires everyone to move at a uniform slower rate
Is the two way cycle way safe? I honestly believe it depends on how it is used, but having seen the behaviour on these short clips, I would not be surprised if there isn't a fatality which may even result in the closure of the route.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 31 Jan 2023, 10:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cycle tramp
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Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

Jdsk wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 5:08pm She made a bad judgement and put several people at risk. We have no idea whether she ever drives a car or not.

Jonathan
Having watched the video clips again a couple of times, her error of judgement, appears to mean that she clips an on coming cyclist who also crashes quite close to the road... and judging by the last clip someone then runs into the prone cyclist that she's knocked off...watch it a couple of times, see if I'm right or not. I'm with Pebble on this one, legal action should have been brought against her. If this had been the behaviour of a car driver we'd be five pages into a thread all asking for action to be taken against them
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cycle tramp
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Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 6:46pm
cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 5:27pm
Jdsk wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:45pm
PS: If I understand the comments below the video many watchers concluded that she contacted the bars of the rider in the middle.
It's possible, another likelihood is that the other rider was so surprised to see her so close he had a bit of a wobble- I know I would, there's sound on the video and there's not a bell ping or anything to let the other rider know of her intention. Either way this clip shows the dangers of overtaking too close, which is why the overtaking space of 1.5 metres has been used.
Probably not much point pinging or calling in that situation. Look at the number of cyclists and the number of overtakes; it would be a continual stream of pings and shouts. Confusing, distracting and noisy.
One outta three ain't bad. Noisy yes - confusing and distracting, I doubt it. We've got better surround sound perception than you think. I bet if someone stood or rode behind you and rung a bell, you could tell where they were. Admittedly there would probably be more than one bell ringing in that instance, but again you'd be able to tell where they were. Especially if as Biospace commented we all started using mirrors in conjunction with them :-)
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Nearholmer
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Re: Overtaking

Post by Nearholmer »

Maybe. I’m quite badly hearing impaired (half deaf, more like) in my left ear, which messes up any accuracy in sensing what’s going on behind me.

All I really want to know is exactly where that section of cycle suicide highway is, so that I can make sure I never ride on it.

Leaving aside the impetuosity of the person who precipitated that series of crashes, that path is way, way too narrow for two-way cycle traffic, especially given that there is no “escape zone” either side.
jimster99
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Re: Overtaking

Post by jimster99 »

Jdsk wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 11:55am
jimster99 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 11:43am ...
I also don't think the 1.5m overtaking rule actually applies to cyclists (the 1.5m is stated in highway code rule 163 here : https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... 159-to-203) and the section on cyclists doesn't appear to say cyclists are required to follow rule 163 (see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... s-59-to-82).
...
I interpret Rules 159 to 203 as applying to all road users as it doesn't say otherwise.

But it would be better if it were explicit, especially as it follows "General rules, techniques and advice for all drivers and riders (103 to 158)".

Jonathan
I remember there was a discussion a few months ago about this. I would actually like to know the answer. I think you are correct especially if you look at rule 59 (at the start of the section for cyclists) which says: "These rules (i.e. rules 59-82, specifically for cyclists) are in addition to those in the following sections, which apply to all vehicles". I think "following sections" means the rest of the highway code (although it could be clearer)!
awavey
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Re: Overtaking

Post by awavey »

cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 9:59pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 6:46pm
cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 5:27pm

It's possible, another likelihood is that the other rider was so surprised to see her so close he had a bit of a wobble- I know I would, there's sound on the video and there's not a bell ping or anything to let the other rider know of her intention. Either way this clip shows the dangers of overtaking too close, which is why the overtaking space of 1.5 metres has been used.
Probably not much point pinging or calling in that situation. Look at the number of cyclists and the number of overtakes; it would be a continual stream of pings and shouts. Confusing, distracting and noisy.
One outta three ain't bad. Noisy yes - confusing and distracting, I doubt it. We've got better surround sound perception than you think. I bet if someone stood or rode behind you and rung a bell, you could tell where they were. Admittedly there would probably be more than one bell ringing in that instance, but again you'd be able to tell where they were. Especially if as Biospace commented we all started using mirrors in conjunction with them :-)
you dont need bells or mirrors in situations like that, you just need to not ride stupid riding into gaps which visibly and clearly arent there for you, I mean shes riding in the oncoming lane to pass people, how else did she think that was going to work out with cyclists heading towards her ?

the riders at the beginning of the video who do that only get away with it because theres nothing coming for at least 32 seconds, and then theres a wave which implies theres a set of traffic lights nearby, I mean theres a rider with a yellow backpack who goes virtually over as far as the opposite kerb, that guy would be lying on the deck if he'd been 10 secs later.

whether it was the angle of the sun, following the other riders, thinking Boris bike guy was an easier pass, or would shift left when he sensed her alongside or just misjudging the closing speeds as everyone is now riding uphill, who knows, but I think its clear the main problem is she rides into a gap that isnt there for her, the first two oncoming riders make it through because theyre closish to their kerbside, 3rd guy isnt, and she's steered left towards Boris bike guy to avoid him,then theyve either touched handle bars, or shouldered each other and the ensuing crash happens as a result.

riding like that reminds me of one of those closed road sportives or Sky Rides I once did where youve got a bunch of people riding around very leisurely, mixed with a bunch of people who are taking racing lines through corners and going hell for leather, and the only reason there arent more crashes on those things was because everyone is heading the same direction...mostly.

but when theres that little space, and lots of riders of differing abilities, youve got to ride with a pretend safety bubble around you and give yourself the space to avoid crashing, the more space you have the more time you have to react and avoid something.

Id probably not ride CS3 if its like that all the time though because that just looks like an everday occurence, where ever or however you ride some idiot is going for a gap thats not there.


as for the original thread point, rather than the drift, I always overtake cyclists with as much of the lane seperating us as possible, kind of always did mainly because I dont trust others bike handling but also it annoys me when people close pass cycle me, but I think that satisfies the "should" aspect of the 1.5m part now, if I expect drivers to give me that room, I dont see why I cant give other cyclists or pedestrians the same space.
Pebble
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Re: Overtaking

Post by Pebble »

One thing I will say about the video, all the riders seem to know that you keep to the left - on Edinburgh cycle paths not all cclists et this important bit and it can be 50/50 which side they aim for. Although I must add, I have never ever seen a cycle path so busy, it would be rare to encounter an oncoming cyclist when overtaking another.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Overtaking

Post by Bmblbzzz »

cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 9:59pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 6:46pm
cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 5:27pm

It's possible, another likelihood is that the other rider was so surprised to see her so close he had a bit of a wobble- I know I would, there's sound on the video and there's not a bell ping or anything to let the other rider know of her intention. Either way this clip shows the dangers of overtaking too close, which is why the overtaking space of 1.5 metres has been used.
Probably not much point pinging or calling in that situation. Look at the number of cyclists and the number of overtakes; it would be a continual stream of pings and shouts. Confusing, distracting and noisy.
One outta three ain't bad. Noisy yes - confusing and distracting, I doubt it. We've got better surround sound perception than you think. I bet if someone stood or rode behind you and rung a bell, you could tell where they were. Admittedly there would probably be more than one bell ringing in that instance, but again you'd be able to tell where they were. Especially if as Biospace commented we all started using mirrors in conjunction with them :-)
Not the point though! If you hear a siren in the street, you can tell where it is, which direction it's going, roughly how fast (and with a bit of familiarity, whether it's fire, ambulance or police), all before you see it. But imagine if every other vehicle had a siren...

Or perhaps a better analogy – you're on a group ride, on quiet country lanes. Every ten minutes or so, there's a shout from the backmarker, "Car back!" (or "Up" or whatever the local vernacular might be). That's useful. But occasionally on these rides, there's someone who carries on shouting "Car!" for every passing vehicle in town or on the A1234. That does not convey any useful information whatsoever.
rareposter
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Re: Overtaking

Post by rareposter »

awavey wrote: 1 Feb 2023, 1:28am as for the original thread point, rather than the drift, I always overtake cyclists with as much of the lane seperating us as possible, kind of always did mainly because I dont trust others bike handling but also it annoys me when people close pass cycle me, but I think that satisfies the "should" aspect of the 1.5m part now, if I expect drivers to give me that room, I dont see why I cant give other cyclists or pedestrians the same space.
This ^^.

I've seen some nasty crashes in mixed ability events that I've ridden or been ride-leading on. Some people seem to assume that just because they (think they) are the ace descender, that everyone else should expect them to pass by 8" away at 40mph. Or that Team Chaingang who have turned up en masse to a Sportive will be fine with them hurtling past Newbie Sportiver in full "I'm in a break of the Tour de France" mode.

That said it's not always the fault of the Overtaker. I've seen plenty of people slam the brakes on and pull over to the side of the road or be concentrating on something other than the road and their riding line and take out people behind them.

I mean, I'm not going to get the tape measure out but just give people space and keep an eye on your surroundings. From riding track, it was drilled into you that you ALWAYS look over your shoulder before moving up the track so maybe that's stuck with me cos it's second nature to do it now in any urban riding environment. Motorcyclists tend to be very good at it too.
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