Overtaking

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
wirral_cyclist
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Location: Wirral Merseyside

Re: Overtaking

Post by wirral_cyclist »

If I see a nail/glass/defect at short notice I'll swerve, probably without looking at times, and by say half a meter? If you are within that distance on my right elbow when what happens? Bad enough getting a shove sideways from me, but should I deflect really wide and you have to do the same then you are then in danger of being collected by other traffic - oncoming variety being most unpleasant. I think close passing is always from lack of skill - basically not understanding "what if's".
cycle tramp
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Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

jimster99 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 11:43am I think on balance cyclists are OK to overtake other cyclists with a bit less than 1.5m. You have better visibility on a bike, it's more maneouverable and there are no wing mirrors sticking out to swipe the overtakee, plus if you did collide, you're two roughly equal sized objects so there is a somewhat reduced chance of either cyclist being crushed or knocked over (vs a collision with a car). And a 1.5m gap would often not be realistic especially in cities and with often narrow cycle lanes.

I also don't think the 1.5m overtaking rule actually applies to cyclists (the 1.5m is stated in highway code rule 163 here : https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... 159-to-203) and the section on cyclists doesn't appear to say cyclists are required to follow rule 163 (see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... s-59-to-82).
It says road users which encompasses everyone who uses the road which includes cyclists.

As for 'there's a reduced chance of being crushed or knocked over', I'd very much like you to show evidence of this, considering anecdotally every collision that I have heard about and witnessed has resulted in the bicycle rider coming off their bicycle'..

..having seen a cycling colleague come off their bike on a slippery wooden bridge and ending up with a broken wrist (healing time 6 weeks plus)... I would say no, its never a good thing when two or more cyclists collide and the most practical way to avoid this is through keeping a 1.5 metre gap been yourself and the cycle rider that you are over taking.
It's time to go :-)
Jules59
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Joined: 16 Jan 2019, 2:34pm

Re: Overtaking

Post by Jules59 »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 7:16am Essentially, yes.

Why wouldn't you?
Exactly, why wouldn't you
slowster
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Re: Overtaking

Post by slowster »

1.5m would be inappropriate on many urban roads with traffic in the oncoming lane, because it would potentially place the overtaking cyclist within ~40cm of the middle of the road, and very often only 1m - or even significantly less - from motor vehicles in the oncoming lane.

The lane in the Jeremy Vine video in the Twitter link below is one of a dual carriageway and is very narrow for a motor vehicle lane, but it illustrates how the amount of space available is limited without going too close to the lane edge.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1528133860885770241

Many cyclepaths are likewise not wide enough to allow anywhere near 1.5m clearance for overtaking another cyclist.

The video below shows a particularly narrow section of a London Cycling Superhighway. Ignoring the crash that occurred, even when there are no oncoming cyclists the lane is simply not wide enough for 1.5m clearance when overtaking.

cycle tramp
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Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

slowster wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:07pm 1.5m would be inappropriate on many urban roads with traffic in the oncoming lane, because it would potentially place the overtaking cyclist within ~40cm of the middle of the road, and very often only 1m - or even significantly less - from motor vehicles in the oncoming lane.

Many cyclepaths are likewise not wide enough to allow anywhere near 1.5m clearance for overtaking another cyclist.
Thanks for the reply, it's appreciated, but i do need to check the points that you made,

It's okay to put my safety, and my personal effects (including but not limited to clothing, bicycle and bicycle load) at risk, by overtaking me at a distance less than 1.5 metres because it means that you place yourself at less risk of being hit by an on coming vehicle?

If I am correct -
(i) isn't that rather selfish? - could you not wait until the road was clear of any on coming traffic (like any other vehicle which wished to overtake me?) after all you are overtaking me, and as such the decision to over take would be yours, through your own choice - equally you also have the choice to hang back and then overtake me when there is no on coming traffic.
(ii) and this paragraph includes your second part in regards to cycle paths, could you not signal your intention to overtake, wait until I dropped from my primary road position to the secondary and then overtake?
(iii) if the cycle superhighway has crashes even when all parties are travelling in the same direction does this not underline the premise that it is unsafe to overtake cyclists at a distance less than 1.5 metres and as a result you should refrain from doing so, until you are invited to overtake or the path widens?

Apologies for some reason I feel I'm writing to a motorist (who wishes to 'make everyone get out of their way') rather than a bicycle rider, so I hope you'll forgive any undue harshness.

If I have missed understood you, would you have the time to clarify your post?
It's time to go :-)
Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Overtaking

Post by Tangled Metal »

If you don't give us 1.5m when overtaking us there's a good chance you and our son (in the middle of us riding single time) will give you a shock. He's terrible at getting distracted and swerving out without any clue he's about to do it. Not great but he's young and for him cycling isn't fun unless it's fun. Fun means unpredictable and stunts. He'll learn one day! Probably when an arrogant cyclist roadie type rides past at 50cm gap! 😆 I hope it's not one of you guys who thinks overtaking rules don't apply to you!

On a serious note, where does it say that cyclists are exempt from the gap or it only applies to non cycling road users? Unless it's given cyclists a specific get out then surely it applies? Can any road user pick and choose what to follow? I know many do but does that make it right?

I guess there's an ethical question here. Rules, do you have to obey them all? Do you believe it's right to pick and choose. Even if there's a slight ambiguity involved is it right or wrong to ignore the rule when there's no explicit get out only a missing, definitive list of who it applies to and who it doesn't?
cycle tramp
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Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

Additional - if you watched the video, the person who took the tumble was attempting to overtake another cyclist at (much, much) less than 1.5 metres. The guy she was trying to overtake swerved outwards and she had nowhere to go

And for what? An attempt to shave couple of minutes of her journey time.

Interested did anyone else spot the litter/cycle hazard at the start, again another cause for people swerving from the path that others had incorrectly assumed that they would be taking.
I guess you can take the motorist out of their car and put them on a bike, but for some people you can't take the motorist out of their head.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 31 Jan 2023, 4:55pm, edited 3 times in total.
It's time to go :-)
Jdsk
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Re: Overtaking

Post by Jdsk »

cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:42pm Additional - if you watched the video, the person who took the tumble was attempting to overtake another cyclist at (much less) than 1.5 metres. The guy she was trying to overtake swerved outwards and she had nowhere to go.

Not only did she risk causing injury to herself but also the other person - and for what? A couple of minutes shaved from her journey time?

I guess you can take the motorist out of their car and put them on a bike, but for some people you can't take the motorist out of their head.
How do you know that she was a motorist in any sense?

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: If I understand the comments below the video many watchers concluded that she contacted the bars of the rider in the middle.
Jdsk
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Re: Overtaking

Post by Jdsk »

cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 9:48am ...
This is for both your safety and mine (if you collide with me when we are both cycling and I am well enough to get up, bad things are going to happen. If you collide with me and I get up and you are already seriously hurt (bearing in mind that I'm usually carrying 18 kgs of luggage, use a heavy duty touring bike frame, together with over built wheels) it doesn't get any better as I usually don't have a mobile phone on me to call for help)
...
I've read this a few times... what "bad things" are going to happen after the collision?

Thanks

Jonathan
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TrevA
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Re: Overtaking

Post by TrevA »

I say give as much room as you can. I know of 2 accidents, one of which was fatal, where riders passing too close either knocked off one of the riders, or the 2 riders became entangled. In the fatal accident, a group was descending a hill at speed, one of the riders hit a pothole which sent him sideways into another rider and they locked handlebars, they both came off. One survived and one didn’t. In the other one, an overtaking rider brushed another rider, knocking him off and breaking his hip.
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slowster
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Re: Overtaking

Post by slowster »

This is the photograph used in the Highway Code to illustrate 1.5m clearance when overtaking a cyclist.

Image
cycle tramp
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Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

Jdsk wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:48pm
cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 9:48am ...
This is for both your safety and mine (if you collide with me when we are both cycling and I am well enough to get up, bad things are going to happen. If you collide with me and I get up and you are already seriously hurt (bearing in mind that I'm usually carrying 18 kgs of luggage, use a heavy duty touring bike frame, together with over built wheels) it doesn't get any better as I usually don't have a mobile phone on me to call for help)
...
I've read this a few times... what "bad things" are going to happen after the collision?

Thanks

Jonathan
Bad things in a general sense.... possibly rain. Higher than expected heating bill... an unexpected household chore like dealing with a blocked sink. It's always rather hard to know with karma :-)
Last edited by cycle tramp on 31 Jan 2023, 5:03pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's time to go :-)
cycle tramp
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Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

slowster wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 5:00pm This is the photograph used in the Highway Code to illustrate 1.5m clearance when overtaking a cyclist.

Image
Yes, it does. And?

Where the cars nearside wheels are, would be the ideal position for any overtaking cyclist. Thank you for the illustration :-)
Last edited by cycle tramp on 31 Jan 2023, 5:08pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's time to go :-)
cycle tramp
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Re: Overtaking

Post by cycle tramp »

Jdsk wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:45pm
cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:42pm Additional - if you watched the video, the person who took the tumble was attempting to overtake another cyclist at (much less) than 1.5 metres. The guy she was trying to overtake swerved outwards and she had nowhere to go.

Not only did she risk causing injury to herself but also the other person - and for what? A couple of minutes shaved from her journey time?

I guess you can take the motorist out of their car and put them on a bike, but for some people you can't take the motorist out of their head.
How do you know that she was a motorist in any sense?

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: If I understand the comments below the video many watchers concluded that she contacted the bars of the rider in the middle.

Her behaviour of that of one who was a motorist - despite the on coming cycle traffic she took a risk to overtake. This is not usually the behaviour of a bicycle rider but more of a motorist. How do you know she wasn't a motorist?
It's time to go :-)
Jdsk
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Re: Overtaking

Post by Jdsk »

She made a bad judgement and put several people at risk. We have no idea whether she ever drives a car or not.

Jonathan
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