Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
jimster99
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Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by jimster99 »

In Surrey Quays, London there is a junction with one of the exits having a No Entry sign and words saying "Except emergency vehicles". See photo below. Can a cyclist use this? Or are they liable for some kind of fixed penalty notice (or even points if they have a drivers licence)? And a few metres away, there's also a no entry sign saying "except buses". What about that one - can a cyclist use it?

Location here: https://goo.gl/maps/hce9SKRWZpRhnVfZA
No entry.JPG
and
No entry (except buses).JPG
Thanks!!
Jdsk
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by Jdsk »

No to both.

No comment on available or likely penalties.

Jonathan

PS: There's an interesting discussion about exemptions and contraflows and how other countries manage this. But there aren't any exemptions in those instances with that signage.
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Tinnishill
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by Tinnishill »

It might be worth contacting the road authority. I received a lot of verbal abuse from motor drivers for cycling in a particular bus lane which offered a short cut. I understood that bus lanes automatically include taxis and bicycles. I quized the roads authority, the county council in my case, and they put up some blue signs to clarify the rules. End of problem.
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cycle tramp
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by cycle tramp »

Complete edit after looking at the photos..

Apologies, I'm getting old and it took me a few minutes to register what I was seeing...

I reckon that's a private road (5 mph a bit further down the road) for goods vehicles to service the supermarket in the background.

The road is quite narrow and suggests that a HGV would occupy the entire road. I suspect the HGV's operate a one way system, but that the road can be used by emergency vehicles avoiding the traffic lights which were probably put in to access the super store when it was built.

It's not a bus lane. (CORRECTION BELOW: it is a bus lane, but I don't know if its a bus lane on a private road or public road which means that there may be additional vehicular restrictions) Personally I wouldn't use that road, if that's what it's been built for. You may meet a bus (corrected from HGV) and it may be heading towards you.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 31 Jan 2023, 2:48pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nearholmer
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by Nearholmer »

A first responder riding a bike could legitimately pass the first one I think, but none of the rest of us.

For instance:

https://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/call ... responder/
cycle tramp
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by cycle tramp »

Additional- sorry I really am getting old - if the tesco's is still currently under construction then it may be that the junction (lower photograph) will change to allow vehicular access to the supermarket.
Without looking at the planning permission I couldn't comment further (there is only so much you can pick out from one photo)

It may be that a bike lane is already under construction behind the blue barrier.
It's time to go :-)
Will
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by Will »

cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 1:27pm Complete edit after looking at the photos..

Apologies, I'm getting old and it took me a few minutes to register what I was seeing...

I reckon that's a private road (5 mph a bit further down the road) for goods vehicles to service the supermarket in the background.

The road is quite narrow and suggests that a HGV would occupy the entire road. I suspect the HGV's operate a one way system, but that the road can be used by emergency vehicles avoiding the traffic lights which were probably put in to access the super store when it was built.

It's not a bus lane. Personally I wouldn't use that road, if that's what it's been built for. You may meet a hgv and it may be heading towards you.
It is a bus lane. If you look at the satellite image, you can quite clearly see a bus turning off the other end into the bus stops (where there are already three other buses). HGV deliveries are clearly done from the rear entrance on Surrey Quays Road.

I can't see the local authority making any changes to the first junction. To make it safe it would be necessary to add a stop line and (bicycle) traffic light on the emergency vehicle lane, and then change the traffic light sequence so that traffic heading SE down Lower Road and traffic doing the u-turn from Rotherhithe Old Road into Lower Road are both stopped at the same time to allow cycles to safely proceed from the emergency vehicle lane into Lower Road.

Will
toontra
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by toontra »

Not sure about the first. At the second I would dismount and walk up the footpath to the left of the road.

I actually cycle here often but usually coming from the other direction through Surrey Quays retail park, which is simpler to navigate, but the whole area is fairly cycle-unfriendly.
cycle tramp
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by cycle tramp »

Will wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 2:03pm
cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 1:27pm Complete edit after looking at the photos..

Apologies, I'm getting old and it took me a few minutes to register what I was seeing...

I reckon that's a private road (5 mph a bit further down the road) for goods vehicles to service the supermarket in the background.

The road is quite narrow and suggests that a HGV would occupy the entire road. I suspect the HGV's operate a one way system, but that the road can be used by emergency vehicles avoiding the traffic lights which were probably put in to access the super store when it was built.

It's not a bus lane. Personally I wouldn't use that road, if that's what it's been built for. You may meet a hgv and it may be heading towards you.
It is a bus lane. If you look at the satellite image, you can quite clearly see a bus turning off the other end into the bus stops (where there are already three other buses). HGV deliveries are clearly done from the rear entrance on Surrey Quays Road.

I can't see the local authority making any changes to the first junction. To make it safe it would be necessary to add a stop line and (bicycle) traffic light on the emergency vehicle lane, and then change the traffic light sequence so that traffic heading SE down Lower Road and traffic doing the u-turn from Rotherhithe Old Road into Lower Road are both stopped at the same time to allow cycles to safely proceed from the emergency vehicle lane into Lower Road.

Will
Damn, you're right. I am getting too old! However I'm still not sure it's a public road - although I'm open to correction* from anyone living in the area. I'll edit my post

Do you think this bus lane operates in one direction only?

*not that sort of correction. Pvc is strictly for washing up gloves and leather is for saddles footwear and coats, besides which, too much of that sort of activity will bring my back on.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 31 Jan 2023, 2:57pm, edited 2 times in total.
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cycle tramp
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by cycle tramp »

toontra wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 2:17pm
I actually cycle here often but usually coming from the other direction through Surrey Quays retail park, which is simpler to navigate, but the whole area is fairly cycle-unfriendly.
Do you know what they are constructing behind the blue barrier?
It's time to go :-)
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mjr
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by mjr »

Tinnishill wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 1:04pm I understood that bus lanes automatically include taxis and bicycles. I quized the roads authority, the county council in my case, and they put up some blue signs to clarify the rules. End of problem.
It's not automatic but there is rarely a good reason in law for prohibiting cyclists from using bus lanes.

Cycles are normally only excluded from things like busways where it's considered that not all cycles (especially tricycles) could stay on the wheel channels/tracks safely. Other than that, when cycles are excluded from a bus lane, it's usually an error by the highway authority and they should correct it when told.
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Will
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by Will »

cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 2:45pm
Will wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 2:03pm
cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 1:27pm Complete edit after looking at the photos..

Apologies, I'm getting old and it took me a few minutes to register what I was seeing...

I reckon that's a private road (5 mph a bit further down the road) for goods vehicles to service the supermarket in the background.

The road is quite narrow and suggests that a HGV would occupy the entire road. I suspect the HGV's operate a one way system, but that the road can be used by emergency vehicles avoiding the traffic lights which were probably put in to access the super store when it was built.

It's not a bus lane. Personally I wouldn't use that road, if that's what it's been built for. You may meet a hgv and it may be heading towards you.
It is a bus lane. If you look at the satellite image, you can quite clearly see a bus turning off the other end into the bus stops (where there are already three other buses). HGV deliveries are clearly done from the rear entrance on Surrey Quays Road.

I can't see the local authority making any changes to the first junction. To make it safe it would be necessary to add a stop line and (bicycle) traffic light on the emergency vehicle lane, and then change the traffic light sequence so that traffic heading SE down Lower Road and traffic doing the u-turn from Rotherhithe Old Road into Lower Road are both stopped at the same time to allow cycles to safely proceed from the emergency vehicle lane into Lower Road.

Will
Damn, you're right. I am getting too old! However I'm still not sure it's a public road - although I'm open to correction* from anyone living in the area. I'll edit my post

Do you think this bus lane operates in one direction only?

*not that sort of correction. Pvc is strictly for washing up gloves and leather is for saddles footwear and coats, besides which, too much of that sort of activity will bring my back on.
Yes. There is a no entry sign at the north end:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.49377 ... 384!8i8192

Will
AndyK
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by AndyK »

The bus lane itself appears to be on private land (presumably part of the Surrey Quays shopping/leisure development) and is not an adopted highway (I checked the Southwark council online map) so it wouldn't be an offence to ride in it, but the landowner could tell you to leave their property and if there were an incident you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. (Metaphorically, I mean!)

However the turning from the main road into the bus lane is part of a public highway, so ignoring the no-left-turn and no-entry signs is an offence and could be punished with a fixed penalty: a fine and, potentially, points on your driving licence. As I understand it, even if you weren't driving a motor vehicle at the time, your licence can still have points on it for this if you have a licence. It's part of the punishment for committing a traffic offence.

If the signs don't specifically say "except cycles" then cycles are not excepted.

The government's Traffic Signs Manual notes that bus lanes should generally also be made available to cyclists, but makes it clear that: (1) you can't just assume this: the signs must mention cycles (in words or as a symbol); and (2) it's reasonable to exclude cyclists when the bus lane leads straight into somewhere that cyclists aren't permitted to ride, such as a bus station. And where does this particular bus lane go? Straight into a bus station.

Oddly, "except emergency vehicles" isn't listed as a prescribed form of words to use with a no-entry sign in the Traffic Signs Manual, which implies that either the highway authority got explicit permission from DfT to put it up, or it's a illegal sign..
jimster99
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by jimster99 »

Thanks for confirming and it seems that indeed cyclists cannot use either of these two lanes! Is it worth asking for the council to amend these signs to allow cyclists to use them in an effort to become more cycle friendly?

And to clarify in response to comments above:

- the bus lane is on private land (or the edge of private land, i.e. a shopping centre) and is a one-way only bus lane (with buses entering past the "No entry except for buses" sign). It goes into the shopping centre (which is built and open, but is having some extra things built onto it right now).

- The traffic lights around the "emergency vehicles only" lane are already set up to allow cyclists to use it, although the lane does spit cyclists out into in the middle of two one-way traffic lanes (one coming from the left and the other from the right) and cyclists do sometimes have to give way (although that could be addressed by adding a "give way" line, not currently present). Also, pedestrians often walk across the "emergency vehicle only" lane without looking as it is cobbled and connects two traffic islands, which appear at first glance to be one giant traffic island.
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Re: Can a cyclist go past a No Entry sign where it says "except emergency vehicles" or "except buses"?

Post by rjb »

cycle tramp wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 2:50pm
toontra wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 2:17pm
I actually cycle here often but usually coming from the other direction through Surrey Quays retail park, which is simpler to navigate, but the whole area is fairly cycle-unfriendly.
Do you know what they are constructing behind the blue barrier?
How about this one, local to you CT. Ive cycled up and down here frequently, never been stopped. Witnessed taxi's, private cars, delivery vehicles, police men on bikes using it. Not sure buses use it now. Why have double yellow no parking lines painted if it cant be used and a no delivery vehicle stopping notice. My excuse is i was going to specsavers. :lol: ?
https://goo.gl/maps/thWf1SZAEq9ZoJ5Z8

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.12907 ... 8192?hl=en
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