Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

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531colin
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by 531colin »

Cowsham wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 3:41pm I thought titanium was a lot stiffer than steel hence the higher chance of it cracking ?
Titanium (alloy, as used for bike frames) is about a third less dense than steel, but also less stiff than steel in about the same ratio.
Therefore, large diameter tubes make a lot of sense with Ti, and Ti frames can be too flexy if made "down to a weight" and certainly if made with the sort of size tubes used in steel......and Ti frames aren't usually one third lighter than steel!

Welding Ti is a touchy business, as somebody already said, but also it should be kept hot for a while to de-stress after welding.....there is a proper word....is it annealing? Some builders seem to be more keen to do this properly than others.

There are some Brucey words of wisdom here...viewtopic.php?p=1267788#p1267788.....including the frightening thought that Ti tapered stays might be welded up from sheet, rather than extruded like steel. (Do I mean extruded? having trouble with words !)

Interesting that the crack doesn't appear to involve the cable exit hole.....that hole wasn't a stress-raiser!
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AlanW
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by AlanW »

Cowsham wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 3:41pm Blew over in the wind ? Was it loaded up or are the top tubes in 853 that thin ?

I thought titanium was a lot stiffer than steel hence the higher chance of it cracking ?
I was just about to start a 200k audax, the bike was leant up against the passenger side of the car while I continued to get dressed ready to go. All of sudden a huge gust of wind whisked up from no where and blew my bike over right onto the edge of a kerb stone, slap bang in the centre of the top tube!!

When you have such a blunt impact in such a isolated spot, not much is going to survive that? That God I wasnt on one of my carbon framed bike..... :shock:

From my personal experience owning both material types, the steel bike seems stiffer?
"You only need two tools: WD40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD40. If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape"
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AlanW
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by AlanW »

531colin wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 4:41pm Interesting that the crack doesn't appear to involve the cable exit hole.....that hole wasn't a stress-raiser!
Yes, those were my thoughts to
"You only need two tools: WD40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD40. If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape"
brumster
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by brumster »

AlanW wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 10:05am The first response received from Kinesis is to say sorry to see the crack in my titanium frame and very quick to point out that unfortunately the frame is now out of warranty. But if I can send a copy of the receipt (which I can) then they can offer a non-warranty assistance of 25% discount from the cost of a equivalent replacement frame. To be fair no exact figures have been quoted, but they list the equivalent frame on their website as being £2400.

However, I can actually purchase the same frame (and its in stock) from an online retailer cheaper by £80.51 than I can by taking the 25% discount from Kinesis, assuming they are working on the figure of £2400 quoted on the web page?
Buying the frame £80 cheaper online will get you a fresh new warranty. You MAY find Kinesis's discounted replacement offer doesn't include warranty. Worth checking. Simpson frameworks may be able to repair the cracked frame too.
NickJP
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by NickJP »

Cowsham wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 3:41pmI thought titanium was a lot stiffer than steel hence the higher chance of it cracking?
No, the Young's modulus (measure of stiffness) of steel is about twice that of titanium.
K1566
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by K1566 »

I had similar issue with an Airborne Valkyrie some years back though the creak was the saddle rails. Turned out to be massive crack through the seat tube. Very disappointed at the time and also out of warranty. Sold the frame to someone who was going to get it welded.
I've since bought a Litespeed TI framed bike which is great and no issues so far.
I just like the ride feel of Ti and steel framed bikes.Also ride a Kinesis T2 as winter bike.
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Cowsham
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by Cowsham »

AlanW wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 5:03pm
Cowsham wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 3:41pm Blew over in the wind ? Was it loaded up or are the top tubes in 853 that thin ?

I thought titanium was a lot stiffer than steel hence the higher chance of it cracking ?
I was just about to start a 200k audax, the bike was leant up against the passenger side of the car while I continued to get dressed ready to go. All of sudden a huge gust of wind whisked up from no where and blew my bike over right onto the edge of a kerb stone, slap bang in the centre of the top tube!!

When you have such a blunt impact in such a isolated spot, not much is going to survive that? That God I wasnt on one of my carbon framed bike..... :shock:

From my personal experience owning both material types, the steel bike seems stiffer?
Interesting -- pardon my ignorance as I've never owned a proper steel bike - mine were more like a gate with wheels.
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Keezx
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by Keezx »

Steel as material is stiffer than titanium, but the dimensions/diameters define the mechanical properties...
I own a China made (XACD) titanium frame for 10 years and app. 70000 km now, still 100%...
Simple plain gauge tubes, custom sizing and cheap , paid 800€ incl. shipping, the best cycling investment in hardware I ever did....
mig
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by mig »

in the original image the wheel looks to be very close to that 'stay.

in the image with the ;guard removed there seems to be a rub mark on the affected part.

did the wheel habitually rub the stay when pedalling hard?
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Cowsham
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by Cowsham »

mig wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 9:42pm in the original image the wheel looks to be very close to that 'stay.

in the image with the ;guard removed there seems to be a rub mark on the affected part.

did the wheel habitually rub the stay when pedalling hard?
Of course not -- He'd just come in from a near 70 miles ride on it -- that would be like pedaling with the rear brakes on !
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AlanW
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by AlanW »

mig wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 9:42pm in the original image the wheel looks to be very close to that 'stay.

in the image with the ;guard removed there seems to be a rub mark on the affected part.

did the wheel habitually rub the stay when pedalling hard?
In the first photo the wheel was central in the frame.

However, and as you have noticed in the second image, yes, the wheel pulled over a few weeks ago and rubbed on the inside of the chain stay. Its only ever done it once to the extent of the tyre rubbing on the frame. That said I have suffered with the wheel pulling over to a much lesser degree on quite a few occasions over the years. I've put this down the hardness of the titanium dropouts, and the serrations on the Q/R wheel skewer not biting into the material to hold the wheel 100% secure. In truth 99% of the time, it's okay and it's not a problem, but if for whatever reason I launch a spirited sprint it can result in a minor misalignment of the wheel. I just have to make sure that I have the skewer much tighter than I am comfortable with.
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mig
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by mig »

Cowsham wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 9:58pm
mig wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 9:42pm in the original image the wheel looks to be very close to that 'stay.

in the image with the ;guard removed there seems to be a rub mark on the affected part.

did the wheel habitually rub the stay when pedalling hard?
Of course not -- He'd just come in from a near 70 miles ride on it -- that would be like pedaling with the rear brakes on !
not to mean "constantly rubbing away like a grinding wheel" more "the occasional flick when honking uphill" which, over time, adds up.
rogerzilla
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by rogerzilla »

There are many examples of Kinesis frames and forks snapping if you do a Google search. I am surprised they are still in business, as the brand must be damaged by these reports. A 5 year warranty is pathetic on titanium, given the purchase price, but obviously reflects their confidence in the product.
Airsporter1st
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by Airsporter1st »

AlanW wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 10:05am The first response received from Kinesis is to say sorry to see the crack in my titanium frame and very quick to point out that unfortunately the frame is now out of warranty. But if I can send a copy of the receipt (which I can) then they can offer a non-warranty assistance of 25% discount from the cost of a equivalent replacement frame. To be fair no exact figures have been quoted, but they list the equivalent frame on their website as being £2400.

However, I can actually purchase the same frame (and its in stock) from an online retailer cheaper by £80.51 than I can by taking the 25% discount from Kinesis, assuming they are working on the figure of £2400 quoted on the web page?

I think I would be reluctant to do either - seems like “throwing good money after bad”. I always tend to vote with my feet in the event of such a bad experience.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Kinesis Titanium Owners - Take Note!

Post by Bmblbzzz »

AlanW wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 5:04pm
531colin wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 4:41pm Interesting that the crack doesn't appear to involve the cable exit hole.....that hole wasn't a stress-raiser!
Yes, those were my thoughts to
And it's also not on the weld itself. It looks more as if it's centred around the chainstay bridge, as if the chainstay had been flexing about that point. Could be the material in the chainstays was just too thin, rather than bad welding?

Not that this makes it any better or gets Kinesis off the hook; rather the opposite, means it's a design fault rather than (possibly) a rogue weld.
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