Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

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Salade_Lyonnaise
Posts: 91
Joined: 21 Jun 2019, 11:18am

Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by Salade_Lyonnaise »

Hello all,

So, late 2019 I've been without a main bike after selling my old refurbed 80s tourer. I've pootled about a little on a temporary 80s Raleigh, but am now hankering after a better build — and I can only store/manage 1 bike overall.

After a lot of to-and-fro-ing, and designing on paper, I've settled on an Elan frame to build up from. However, the next dilemma is...which size?!

If anyone feels so kind to offer their opinions/experience/expertise, I'd love to hear. I know the solution would be a trip to Harrogate, but that's a bit cost & time prohibitive right now and for a frame only.

So lend me your eyes kind community:
  • THE AIM: an all-purpose (holy grail :lol: ) bike for commuting, shopping, weekend leisure and the occasional camping tour with panniers. Biggest consideration is a relaxed, more upright fit, like a city bike but with touring dirt-track potential
  • THE BUILD: One-One "Geoff" bars (but I'll cut the width down) for leisurely upright city dawdling, with the option to get my head down when touring / Steel forks / 27.5" wheelset with fattest tyres possible / 160mm cranks
  • MY PARTICULARS: 5ft 10.5in / 86cm anatomical inside leg / ~76.5cm BB centre to saddle top with 170 cranks (77.5cm with 160 I guess!)
Here are a few charts against my only comparison — a current 80s Raleigh Royal 56/56, smaller than my previous bikes, but comfortable on the flats with a 70mm stem:

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I look forward to, and am most grateful for your input! :D
Last edited by Salade_Lyonnaise on 8 Feb 2023, 12:18pm, edited 2 times in total.
DanZac
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Joined: 22 Aug 2019, 6:43am

Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by DanZac »

Salade_Lyonnaise wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 11:41pm However, the next dilemma is...which size?!
Just phone Spa, They're really helpful (if you get them on the right day) and will advise exactly what size they think will suit you best with your requirements.

In fact, the couple of frames and bikes I've had from them they've always phoned me after I'd put the order in to check I was ordering the right size.
A dull read for a rainy day - https://pperratt.weebly.com/
Salade_Lyonnaise
Posts: 91
Joined: 21 Jun 2019, 11:18am

Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by Salade_Lyonnaise »

DanZac wrote: 8 Feb 2023, 8:18am
Just phone Spa, They're really helpful (if you get them on the right day) and will advise exactly what size they think will suit you best with your requirements.

In fact, the couple of frames and bikes I've had from them they've always phoned me after I'd put the order in to check I was ordering the right size.
Great thanks Dan, Spa are so good aren’t they! I’ve had a chat with them, and was leaning towards 54 but I’m literally in-between. I’m more wondering about anyone’s experience on one for a few months…if anyone had a similar experience and made the right choice/wishes they’d sized up for xyz reasons. Cheers!
Nearholmer
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Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by Nearholmer »

Given that we seem to be the same height and within a gnat’s on leg length (I go for a longer crank for the same seat height), I thought I’d compare my current bike with the Elan in 54cm.

They come out very similar, <10mm difference in key dimensions, especially given that I ride with a fairly short stem and a fairly forward seat position.
C1CBF6F8-82FE-4FFE-94F0-61B9B3A1C5C5.jpeg
So, if I were choosing for me, who seems to be roughly the same size as you, I’d choose the 54cm … which surprised me slightly, because my usual is nominal 56cm or 55.5cm.

On another bike, I’ve been faffing about with bars that give a similar hand position to the ones you are looking at, and it’s surprising how far back they come, so you might need quite a long stem to compensate for that to avoid it becoming like tiller-steering a barge. I get the impression that they were originally designed for very “long fronted” bikes, 29er maybe.
Salade_Lyonnaise
Posts: 91
Joined: 21 Jun 2019, 11:18am

Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by Salade_Lyonnaise »

Nearholmer wrote: 8 Feb 2023, 11:03am Given that we seem to be the same height and within a gnat’s on leg length (I go for a longer crank for the same seat height), I thought I’d compare my current bike with the Elan in 54cm.

They come out very similar, <10mm difference in key dimensions, especially given that I ride with a fairly short stem and a fairly forward seat position.

C1CBF6F8-82FE-4FFE-94F0-61B9B3A1C5C5.jpeg

So, if I were choosing for me, who seems to be roughly the same size as you, I’d choose the 54cm … which surprised me slightly, because my usual is nominal 56cm or 55.5cm.

On another bike, I’ve been faffing about with bars that give a similar hand position to the ones you are looking at, and it’s surprising how far back they come, so you might need quite a long stem to compensate for that to avoid it becoming like tiller-steering a barge. I get the impression that they were originally designed for very “long fronted” bikes, 29er maybe.
This is fantastic, thanks Nearholmer! What's your inside leg, I think we're actually the same – I just realised I fluffed the saddle height measurement: on 170 cranks it's 76.5 approx, so 77.5 with new 160 cranks. I'm 'more legs than torso', so a large concern on mine end is having a ridiculous amount of seatpost! Do you think your Croix de Fer would look ridiculous with an extra 15mm of seatpost up?

Yes, the Elan seems to be a different sizing outcome to many others. This is a great help, cheers!
Nearholmer
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Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by Nearholmer »

My inside leg, to the floor, in cycling shoes seems to be 84cm.

Seat on mine could definitely come up 15mm without problem - I actually have it a tiny bit lower than fully optimal for power because I ride off-road a lot and it’s better that way for “floating on one leg”.

Appearance wise, judge for yourself whether higher would look silly. I don’t think so.
E9CDF499-7BFF-4A27-BEF9-DDE5BDE5A37D.jpeg
It would be worth you running the comparison tool yourself and looking at all the numbers in case I’ve overlooked some vital detail. The Elan has longer chainstsys I think, which is characteristic of a slightly more “touring” geometry.
slowster
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Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by slowster »

Salade_Lyonnaise wrote: 7 Feb 2023, 11:41pm I know the solution would be a trip to Harrogate, but that's a bit cost & time prohibitive right now and for a frame only.
Not as cost prohibitive as finding that you have spent a large amount building up a bike, only to be disappointed because it is not what you expected it to be.

If you are used to riding 80s touring bikes, and have not ridden a bike like the Elan or a similar model from another brand, then a trip to Spa would be money well spent. I would also recommend trying either the Wayfarer or the D'Tour (or both if time pemits) in addition to the Elan. Given what you intend to use the bike for, I think a Wayfarer or maybe a D'Tour might be a better choice.

If you are not used to using bars with a lot of backsweep, I would recommend sticking with flat bars like those with which you are already familiar. In my experience bars with a lot of backsweep require the angle of the bars and the reach to be 'just so', because varying the angle or the reach changes the articulation of the wrist, something to which people appear to be so sensitive that it has to be just right to be comfortable. With conventional flat bars wrist angle does not alter anywhere near as much with a longer or shorter stem. Better to choose the size (top tube) of bike and stem based on flat bars to which you are already used, and experiment with heavily backswept bars (likely also necessitating experimenting with stem length) later.

Loop bars are a subset of heavily backswept bars, and they are very stiff because of the bracing of the loop. The On-One version is probably especially so, e.g. it is plain gauge tubing. I think they are far too stiff for a touring bike. They were developed for use on MTBs with wide tyres (e.g. 2.5 inch or ideally more), which compensate for that extra stiffness, and even then most people need heavily cushioned grips. Modern frames with oversize tubing, 1 1/8" steerers, ahead stems and 31.8mm clamp bars are stiffer than an 80s tourer with 1" top tube, 1" steerer, quill stem and 26mm clamp diameter bars. Adding loop bars to the former would increase that stiffness to an unacceptable degree for me, and I think for the vast majority of people.
Salade_Lyonnaise
Posts: 91
Joined: 21 Jun 2019, 11:18am

Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by Salade_Lyonnaise »

Nearholmer wrote: 8 Feb 2023, 12:51pm My inside leg, to the floor, in cycling shoes seems to be 84cm.

Seat on mine could definitely come up 15mm without problem - I actually have it a tiny bit lower than fully optimal for power because I ride off-road a lot and it’s better that way for “floating on one leg”.

Appearance wise, judge for yourself whether higher would look silly. I don’t think so.

E9CDF499-7BFF-4A27-BEF9-DDE5BDE5A37D.jpeg

It would be worth you running the comparison tool yourself and looking at all the numbers in case I’ve overlooked some vital detail. The Elan has longer chainstsys I think, which is characteristic of a slightly more “touring” geometry.
Thanks – this is truly helpful. Maybe I'll see if there's a CDF nearby to try out.

I'm at 86 anatomical inside leg bare-footed, so I still wonder if seatpost and steerer at even height may feel a bit wobbly!

Also...the CDF is another option... :? :lol:
Nearholmer
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Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by Nearholmer »

All that Slowster says about swept-back bars is true.

I bought the set I’ve been faffing about with, thinking that the wrist position would be more natural than flat bars, but it strangely doesn’t work, throwing forces in all sorts of odd directions in the wrist however I adjust them, and then the tiller steering thing that I mentioned before, the correction of which would have needed a longer stem and all the cabling lengthened.

On that bike I went back to the straight bars it came with, shortened them very slightly, fitted a short stem, and fitted Ergotec grips and it now seems right for what I wanted. It’s taken two weeks of on and off fiddling to get there though! In comparison, getting the seat position right took about ten minutes. I think it’s the Ergotec grips that make the biggest difference, by preventing the wrist “rolling under”.

Slowster is also right about the radical difference from an 80s bike. I refurbed a 1990 hybrid that has a “town” style frame last year, and it turned-out super-comfy ….. I’d forgotten how very flexible and smooth-riding those bikes were.
st599_uk
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Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by st599_uk »

I'm 168cm and ride a 52cm Spa Elan.

But, if you're anywhere near the North of England, give them a ring. They loaned me an Elan for 5 hours to go out for a ride.

(I actually went in for a Wayfarer, but I had a 40mins chat about what I would use the bike for, personal requirements due to health... and they told me it was an Elan I should get). Used it on the Rheinradweg, shorter Audaxes, commuting... Built to my spec, with wide range gearing, wide tyres etc. Only thing they couldn't do for me was tan wall tyres, but they were in short supply due to the pandemic.
A novice learning...
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531colin
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Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by 531colin »

These activities always descend into chaos.

I think we are all measuring "inside leg" similarly.......a book up your crotch and measure to the floor.
I measure 88cm in my socks. (I used to be over 5' 10" until my intervertebral discs shrunk.....I'm under 5'9" now and have stopped measuring, other than relative to the grandkids)
My saddle is 70cm above the BB axle (measured straight up the seat tube, 170 cranks)

If I try to do a table, it doesn't work....anybody?

The logical way to measure saddle height is to the bum-bone dent, as LeMond did, because it takes account of setback.
If there is a logical way to measure leg length its probably standing height minus sitting height.....because we sit on out ischiac tubercle/ischio-pubic ramus, not our pubic symphasis, and we stand from our hip joint.
.....however, I suspect the difference between how individuals like to pedal is so much that "accuracy" doesn't matter.

Imagefoot level on bottom pedal by 531colin, on Flickr

thats me on an early Elan prototype size 54; before we extended the head tube.
Thats how I like to pedal; sat behind the BB, plenty of bend in my knee so I can pedal over the bumps in contact with the saddle but with no real weight on the saddle.....somebody already said much the same thing.

Notice how far my hands are in front of the head tube. If you put backswept bars on a bike with traditional touring geometry steering, I don't like the steering feel. Others will, of course, differ.

Again, actually riding a 54 Elan, current geometry

Image_DSC0829 by 531colin, on Flickr
peetee
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Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by peetee »

I would normally ride a 60cm fast road frame with a 57cm top tube and 10cm stem. I’m 6’ with a 34” inside leg.
I recently required a gravel & bike-packing steed and wanted a more relaxed riding position. I chose a 54cm Spa Elan and fitted an 8cm stem. It’s very comfortable without feeling inefficient. There is a slight drawback in that when out of the saddle my knees are worryingly close to the bars but with the super-low gearing standing on the pedals is rarely needed. One unrelated but satisfying aspect of choosing the Elan is that the copper paint colour is simply delicious 8) .
9BCB2363-985D-427C-8F35-118231A197D0.jpeg
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
Salade_Lyonnaise
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Joined: 21 Jun 2019, 11:18am

Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by Salade_Lyonnaise »

slowster wrote: 8 Feb 2023, 2:23pm ...If you are not used to using bars with a lot of backsweep, I would recommend sticking with flat bars like those with which you are already familiar...
Nearholmer wrote: 8 Feb 2023, 3:11pm I bought the set I’ve been faffing about with, thinking that the wrist position would be more natural than flat bars, but it strangely doesn’t work...

... I refurbed a 1990 hybrid that has a “town” style frame last year, and it turned-out super-comfy ….. I’d forgotten how very flexible and smooth-riding those bikes were.
Thanks @slowster and @Nearholmer

Very good points re: bars, food for thought before I end up down a tangled path! I've only ever used classic drops, but am forever on the flats or the hoods! The drops are absolutely not good for my neck, so I wanted to try out a relaxed upright bar with a forward lean option, and something along the lines of an old 1930s sportive. Most of the time I'm pootling down to the shops, not stage 4 of Le Tour!

And yes, 80s frame are just great. I keep going back to them. I've been building up my own bikes for the last 10yrs or so, and have been scared to take the plunge to newer specs, but also the comfort of old steel!

Back to the drawing board then :lol:
531colin wrote: 8 Feb 2023, 4:34pm I think we are all measuring "inside leg" similarly...

...Notice how far my hands are in front of the head tube. If you put backswept bars on a bike with traditional touring geometry steering, I don't like the steering feel. Others will, of course, differ.
Great help once again Colin. Yes I'm doing the book measurement. I'm more legs than anything (long arms too), and relatively short torso for height. So I tend to run into an issue with seat-tube vs reach.

Yes, again re: bars...maybe I'll be a guinea pig and update the results on here. The same did cross my mind though – I did wonder if it would be like putting handlebars on a segway :lol:

peetee wrote: 8 Feb 2023, 7:33pm ...I’m 6’ with a 34” inside leg. I recently required a gravel & bike-packing steed and wanted a more relaxed riding position. I chose a 54cm Spa Elan and fitted an 8cm stem. It’s very comfortable without feeling inefficient. There is a slight drawback in that when out of the saddle my knees are worryingly close to the bars...
this is great @peetee , thanks! We are the same inside leg, I'm just an inch or so shorter (mainly due to slouching at a desk, I swear I was 6ft 10yrs ago :shock: )

I may get the same knee problem as you then...leaning towards the 56cm now...oh dear..chasing my own tail :lol:

Can I ask @peetee and @531colin – how much seat-tube and headtube is there above the top of the top tube on your frame?

Thanks all!
swscotland bentrider
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Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by swscotland bentrider »

In the old days I rode a 56 x 56 cm frame ( seat / top tube). I now require a far more upright position. The front of the Elan is tall and works perfectly for me. I’m 6’0” with a 32” inside leg and ride a 54cm. I previously rode a Spa tourer. Very good but requires stacks of Spencer’s under the stem which I disliked.
Salade_Lyonnaise
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Re: Spa Cycles Elan sizing — please help me choose!

Post by Salade_Lyonnaise »

swscotland bentrider wrote: 8 Feb 2023, 8:35pm ...I’m 6’0” with a 32” inside leg and ride a 54cm...
Thanks @swscotland. Are you a 32 trouser inside leg, or anatomical (all the way up)?
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