Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

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tim-b
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by tim-b »

Have you access to a copper-bottomed biomechanical assessment of head impact likelihood using pedals one unclips from against those where you don't?
Not wishing to be either rude or combative, but do you? I know that putting my foot down changes things
That's always been the thing with this debate; nobody has definitive assessments of anything.
I like Cugel's calculation, my sort of maths :) I can work with that and similar solutions ^^
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pjclinch
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by pjclinch »

tim-b wrote: 21 Feb 2023, 5:29pm
Have you access to a copper-bottomed biomechanical assessment of head impact likelihood using pedals one unclips from against those where you don't?
Not wishing to be either rude or combative, but do you? I know that putting my foot down changes things
Of course I don't!
I know that on sketchy corners I tend to unclip in advance, so I don't really see that it will necessarily make much difference. Even if I don't then typically the case that I unclip by reflex if things are going wrong, and outside of slow corners clipless stop your feet bouncing off the pedals on e.g. hitting an unexpected pothole.
In other words one can argue that while they may make low speed topples more likely they can make one safer at speed, and since speed typically varies it would be very hard to generally call one over the other in overall effect. And so on.
tim-b wrote: 21 Feb 2023, 5:29pm That's always been the thing with this debate; nobody has definitive assessments of anything.
I like Cugel's calculation, my sort of maths :) I can work with that and similar solutions ^^
I think Cugel made a good point, but I would draw a pretty clear distinction between personal experience like never having whacked a head falling off and deciding apropos of I'm not sure what that wearing a winter coat will significantly alter the chances of hitting a head in a prang. That latter strikes me as inventing stuff to support a theory TBH.

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Cugel
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by Cugel »

If only we could all be more honest with ourselves! For example, I've found myself inventing "rationalisations" after the fact for buying all sorts of things which "rationalisations" are very much made up - outright lying to myself! It can be embarrassing, see, to admit that you bought a useless thing on impulse or because everyone else has one or because some sleb says they're wunnerful things to buy and have. (I generally succumb if the thing is a shiny tooly sort of gubbins with lots of knobs & levers of brass & steel).

Listening to the "rationalisations" of many cyclists I know who have taken to wearing helmets over the past couple of decades, I notice this. If I task them with providing a metrics-based answer (how much reduction or otherwise in accident rates, serious head injuries or anything else of the hard evidence type) ..... they have none. They bought one because everyone else did and because "It's obvious it could save your life". Adverts followed by peer pressure and the disapproval of self-appointed helmet fascists. Some folk can't stand up to such pressures.

This isn't to say that there couldn't be a good rationalisation for buying and wearing a cyclists helmet in various cases. After all, I also know cyclists who fall off a lot and even some who fall off a lot and somehow manage to bang their head now and then (as well as everything else; but they won't buy hip, shoulder, elbow and ankle protectors).

I am considering if I should have a helmet myself for the more gnarly and knurry gravel rides I'm intending to do - because I lack a full experience of riding such surfaces and thus the full skillset; the routes are strewn with sticky-up rocks; and 74 year-olds are brittle. (I'd get them pantaloons with hip pads in an' all, if I felt the risk of a rapid sprawl to the deck was significant).

But i ain't getting a helmet just to please the helmet sellers, their advert writers or a load of little hitlers keen to treat cyclists in a totalitarian manner. No.

Cugel
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De Sisti
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by De Sisti »

There is a story doing the rounds that a former BBC presenter living in Sheffield has said
that his life was saved by wearing a helmet during a collision with a motor vehicle that he
was involved in. Yet more 'conclusive' proof that helmets save lives.
mattheus
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by mattheus »

De Sisti wrote: 21 Feb 2023, 9:55pm There is a story doing the rounds that a former BBC presenter living in Sheffield has said
that his life was saved by wearing a helmet during a collision with a motor vehicle that he
was involved in. Yet more 'conclusive' proof that helmets save lives.
Ironically, he was almost certainly concussed, having forgotten most of what happened.
But yes, I've seen considerable discussion on twitter. By which I mean: rehashing of the same old arguments we've grown to love here!

EDIT: now has it's own thread just above this one!
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al_yrpal
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by al_yrpal »

Like many helmet advocates I had a crash long ago in which I came off fairly fast sideways. My shoulder hit the ground and my head whiplashed sideways with the helmet striking the ground hard and skidding along. I felt the helmet spread the load and save my head from a painful impact with the tarmac.
Did it save my life...no, I expect not. Did it save me from a lot of pain and possibly concussion....yes it definately did.
For that reason, trusting my own judgement I always wear a helmet and always will.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
mattheus
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by mattheus »

al_yrpal wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 9:53am
Did it save my life...no, I expect not. Did it save me from a lot of pain and possibly concussion....yes it definately did.
For that reason, trusting my own judgement I always wear a helmet and always will.
Al, Have you read up on the research about helmets preventing concussions?
softlips
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by softlips »

I was knocked off a few years ago and slid along the ground. A large section of the helmet shell was worn down to the styrene beneath (as well as broken), without the helmet my skin would have been worn down to the skull below.
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pjclinch
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by pjclinch »

softlips wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 8:24pm I was knocked off a few years ago and slid along the ground. A large section of the helmet shell was worn down to the styrene beneath (as well as broken), without the helmet my skin would have been worn down to the skull below.
Again the case that you don't actually know this to be a fact. As a helmet protrudes quite a way beyond the scalp it means it's much harder to keep a helmet off the ground than a head.
Note that I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but I am saying you can't be sure you're right.

On to getting right through to the bone, my sister is a primary school teacher and on a school trip once one of their kids tripped and fell and hit their head on an iron railing fence. The wound went down to the bone. Not nice, but as I understand it they recovered completely, and for some reason the school has not taken to banning children from going near iron railing fences, or requiring them to wear crash helmets if they do, even though it would have quite likely been of considerable benefit had the child in the accident been wearing one.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by al_yrpal »

mattheus wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 12:49pm
al_yrpal wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 9:53am
Did it save my life...no, I expect not. Did it save me from a lot of pain and possibly concussion....yes it definately did.
For that reason, trusting my own judgement I always wear a helmet and always will.
Al, Have you read up on the research about helmets preventing concussions?
Theres so much emotional claptrap on this subject posted by the anti helmet brigade... No, I trust my own judgement from my own experiences.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
mattheus
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by mattheus »

al_yrpal wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 8:23am
mattheus wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 12:49pm
al_yrpal wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 9:53am
Did it save my life...no, I expect not. Did it save me from a lot of pain and possibly concussion....yes it definately did.
For that reason, trusting my own judgement I always wear a helmet and always will.
Al, Have you read up on the research about helmets preventing concussions?
Theres so much emotional claptrap on this subject posted by the anti helmet brigade... No, I trust my own judgement from my own experiences.

Al
It would take a small googling effort; there are independent studies, and one done by the manufacturers. They come up on the first page.
I recommend this to you (it can only inform your judgement).
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Cugel
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by Cugel »

al_yrpal wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 8:23am
mattheus wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 12:49pm
Al, Have you read up on the research about helmets preventing concussions?
Theres so much emotional claptrap on this subject posted by the anti helmet brigade... No, I trust my own judgement from my own experiences.

Al
"The anti-helmet brigade". Who this? If you examine the postings here you'll generally find that there are no anti helmet posts just posts questioning the "emotional claptrap" of those claiming they have been saved from fates worse than death by their polystyrene hat.

No one suggests that cyclists shouldn't wear a helmet if they want to, only that they should stop inventing silly rationalisations-after-the-fact for buying one - rationalisations with no basis at all in any objective evidence; rationalisations claiming protections far in excess of what the helmet manufacturers state are the limits of the protections that their overpriced hats can provide. Rationalisations that seem to make helmet buyers think that they have a right to become helmet fascists offering condemnatory judgements on the unhelmeted.

***************
There is hard evidence that compulsory helmet mandates (including those exerted by advert svengalis as well as totalitarian peer & media pressure) can put people off cycling. And evidence that some who use a helmet (as with all safety aids) will take risks-too-far based on an assumption that their helmet (or ABS brakes or sidelights-always-on) "will save my life".

This doesn't mean that one should eschew the helmet, only that one should be aware of all the factors involved in calculating the risks involved (their reduction and increase) when choosing to wear a helmet or not. You're right to think that personal experience of falling of a bike might provide good evidence for wearing or not-wearing a helmet but you do need to be able to judge those experiences in some meaningful fashion. Assumptions about such rapidly occurring and painful events can often be less than accurate.

Cugel
Last edited by Cugel on 23 Feb 2023, 12:41pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pjclinch
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by pjclinch »

al_yrpal wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 8:23am
mattheus wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 12:49pm
al_yrpal wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 9:53am
Did it save my life...no, I expect not. Did it save me from a lot of pain and possibly concussion....yes it definately did.
For that reason, trusting my own judgement I always wear a helmet and always will.
Al, Have you read up on the research about helmets preventing concussions?
Theres so much emotional claptrap on this subject posted by the anti helmet brigade... No, I trust my own judgement from my own experiences.
I'm not sure who the "anti-helmet brigade" are (people like me? I have and use a bike helmet, my profile pic includes me in a bike helmet, so if I'm "anti" them I'm going about it a pretty strange way!), and in fact people flagging up "the anti-helmet brigade" is often a sign of, well, emotional claptrap incoming, generally in the form of dismissing out of hand anything that might suggest their beliefs might not be correct.

There is no shortage of pretty decent evidence and expert opinion from folk with no skin in the game of saying so that bike helmets don't do much to affect concussion. If you prefer anecdotes, at a recent first aid course I was on the instructor said a "normal" one didn't, but she wasn't sure about MIPS. One of the folk on the course was a ski instructor who used a MIPS helmet, and said she'd suffered two concussions with it in place.

Nobody's saying you shouldn't trust your own judgement to inform your own personal choice, but if you're going to advocate them (and you describe yourself above as an advocate) then you really ought to have much better evidence than a single uncontrolled personal anecdote. The evidence threshold for personal use is pretty much nothing, it's down to preference, but to advocate them to other people you should have better, and writing off anyone disagreeing as members of "the anti-helmet brigade" bearing "emotional claptrap" really doesn't cut the mustard in policy discourse.

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irc
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by irc »

al_yrpal wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 8:23am
mattheus wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 12:49pm
al_yrpal wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 9:53am
Did it save my life...no, I expect not. Did it save me from a lot of pain and possibly concussion....yes it definately did.
For that reason, trusting my own judgement I always wear a helmet and always will.
Al, Have you read up on the research about helmets preventing concussions?
Theres so much emotional claptrap on this subject posted by the anti helmet brigade... No, I trust my own judgement from my own experiences.

Al
My experience is half a century of cycling without an injury accident bar minor abrasions. I'm happy you feel a helmet is needed for your safety. I feel it isn't for mine.

Free country etc. As long as there are no laws either banning helmets or making them compulsory it's all good.
axel_knutt
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Re: Cyclists hitting their heads on crashing

Post by axel_knutt »

tim-b wrote: 14 Feb 2023, 4:07amanecdotes about climbing out of the swimming pool, walking home, etc are frankly bizarre and have no connection to riding a bicycle.
Your chance of dying from a head injury depends on the probability of any head injury, not just those caused by cycling, in fact your chance of dying at all depends on the chance of any fatal injury, and not just head injuries. If the objective is to reduce the risk of death, then the rational way to go about it is to apply the Pareto Principle: you look to see which risks are the biggest cause of death, and which risks can be reduced at the least cost (I'm using this term in its general sense, not just money). The most effective way to achieve the objective is by gauging cost against benefit: you don't expend 80% of the effort for 20% of the benefit if you can get 80% of the benefit for 20% of the effort, and you don't hire a cherry picker to reach two apples at the top of the tree whilst there are still hundreds you can reach standing on the ground. If you're into wearing helmets, you can get far more benefit from wearing one in the car, and many other activities.
Cugel wrote: 21 Feb 2023, 9:42pmAdverts followed by peer pressure and the disapproval of self-appointed helmet fascists. Some folk can't stand up to such pressures.
The more interesting question is why those who wear helmets on a bike don't wear them in a car. Whatever reason people might like to devise, the fact is that everyone knows intuitively that driving a car or walking down the street wearing a helmet will be seen as weird, eccentric, and a figure of fun. This is why people learn to conform to society's norms from a very early age: the price for non-conformity is very high indeed, far higher than most other risks. If you doubt this, watch how this woman's willing to risk dying in a fire rather than be the one who's different from all the others.
al_yrpal wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 9:53am Like many helmet advocates I had a crash long ago in which I came off fairly fast sideways. My shoulder hit the ground and my head whiplashed sideways with the helmet striking the ground hard and skidding along. I felt the helmet spread the load and save my head from a painful impact with the tarmac.
Did it save my life...no, I expect not. Did it save me from a lot of pain and possibly concussion....yes it definately did.
For that reason, trusting my own judgement I always wear a helmet and always will.
One of the head injuries I referred to upthread was in this:
TR7 #2.jpg
I broke my nose when my head snapped forwards and butted the steering wheel as I came to the end of my tether on the seatbelt. As you can see, I would certainly have been far worse off, and possibly dead if I hadn't been wearing the belt.

That anecdote, factual as it is, doesn't constitute evidence that compulsory seatbelt legislation reduced the number of deaths on the roads.
It didn't.
No country in the world has shown that compulsory seatbelt legislation reduced deaths, but it's been shown that the legislation increased pedestrian and cyclist deaths, and that seatbelt wearers drive faster. The point I'm making here is that whilst I've benefitted personally from wearing a seatbelt, the population as a whole hasn't, and I would never use my own anecdote in an attempt to deny it. It's Parlialment's job to legislate for the collective benefit of all citizens, not for the personal benefit of Axel.
irc wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 3:13pmFree country etc.
But not a country free from peer pressure.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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