Debate on 15 minute cities on Radio 4 now.

[Cugel]

Yes, the conspiracist-libertarian-right is somehow being mobilised. It’s difficult to know who might be facilitating that,

One group who I believe have been promoting it for some time is the alternative "medicine" industry, from rational if dishonourable motives.
For several years before the pandemic, I had been noticing that various publications concerned with 'alternative' lifestyles, many of them carrying a lot of advertising for complimentary and alternative medicine, were showing a distinct drift towards the right. The motive was clear enough: deregulation, or a 'bonfire of red tape', as purveyors of alternative medicines would naturally benefit from less regulation of advertising.

They certainly press the boundaries of what is allowed: I have a file of alternative medicine promotors that I have reported to the ASA. One particularly nasty case involved someone whose advert amounted to saying 'if you are having a panic attack or are in crisis, send me £50 and I will immediately send you psychic support, you may not be able to feel it but it will be there'. The ASA, to their credit, promptly put a stop to that.
A more recent case involved someone offering cereal bars including "monatomic gold". The advertiser asserted that this monatomic gold was significantly different from ordinary gold and had near-miraculous health-giving properties. In reality, all gold is monatomic and the most likely effect of ingesting small quantites of fine gold dust is that it will come out the other end without engaging in any chemical process on route: gold is famously unreactive. They were told not to repeat the advert.

Very good work.

And another illustration of how the capitalist lust for profit at any cost will do literally anything to fulfill that lust, including the reduction of any and all societies to a condition in which we all become "suckers" given no protection or breaks from exploitation and degradation whatsoever, never mind an even break.

The so called alternative medicine predators are small beer, perhaps, compared to the big beasts of The City, Big Business and their pack of rabid regulation-arsonists in government, all clawing and gnawing on the body politic. But these seekers of various toxic freedumbs to lie, exploit and rob, however small in number, begin to add up. Consider the USA, where any kind of "business model" is allowed, no matter how nasty the results.

To the modern capitalist, we suckers are also "losers" and therefore deserve everything we get, including the degradations and deaths of many and gruesome variety enabled by the freedumbs of those for whom, "It's just business, at which we are winning".

Cugel

[pete75]

One group who I believe have been promoting it for some time is the alternative "medicine" industry, from rational if dishonourable motives.
For several years before the pandemic, I had been noticing that various publications concerned with 'alternative' lifestyles, many of them carrying a lot of advertising for complimentary and alternative medicine, were showing a distinct drift towards the right. The motive was clear enough: deregulation, or a 'bonfire of red tape', as purveyors of alternative medicines would naturally benefit from less regulation of advertising.

They certainly press the boundaries of what is allowed: I have a file of alternative medicine promotors that I have reported to the ASA. One particularly nasty case involved someone whose advert amounted to saying 'if you are having a panic attack or are in crisis, send me £50 and I will immediately send you psychic support, you may not be able to feel it but it will be there'. The ASA, to their credit, promptly put a stop to that.
A more recent case involved someone offering cereal bars including "monatomic gold". The advertiser asserted that this monatomic gold was significantly different from ordinary gold and had near-miraculous health-giving properties. In reality, all gold is monatomic and the most likely effect of ingesting small quantites of fine gold dust is that it will come out the other end without engaging in any chemical process on route: gold is famously unreactive. They were told not to repeat the advert.

Very good work.

And another illustration of how the capitalist lust for profit at any cost will do literally anything to fulfill that lust, including the reduction of any and all societies to a condition in which we all become "suckers" given no protection or breaks from exploitation and degradation whatsoever, never mind an even break.

Anyone who feels they may be suffering from gullability, you can be cured. Just send £4,000 to PO Box 666, London

[Jdsk]

"Supreme Court rules in favour of our landmark park sell-off case":
https://goodlawproject.org/update/supre ... pWin010323

"Help stop the great British public space sell-off":
https://goodlawproject.org/case/help-st ... -sell-off/

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Full Fact: "Oxford residents won’t require a permit to ‘leave their district’":
https://fullfact.org/online/oxford-resi ... -district/

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

What people say they want when they're asked:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/art ... minute-nei
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/16326 ... OlwKgtAAAA

including:

Jonathan

[Bmblbzzz]

I think I could tick all of those, though the primary school would be 15 minutes at "hurry we're going to be late" pace, not actual primary school child pace. I could get to the post box in less than a minute from closing the front door if I ran! But how often do I actually use it? Not often. At least not for post, it's a good place for meeting neighbours. In practice, I use maybe three or four on that list on a regular basis, plus the schools when the kids were that age. Personally I'd add bakers and greengrocers (that I have within 15 minutes walk and use regularly).

[Nearholmer]

I’d love to do an experiment in which all those things magically materialise within 15 minutes of all the participants, and their actual frequency of use of each thing is measured.

It’s just that I don’t believe 90% of people would use the bus on a regular basis even f there was one, in fact I doubt that % of people did when buss were the prime means of transport above walking and cycling, and quite why so many want a bank nearby when banks have shut in droves due to lack of patronage I’m mystified by.

Useful in in some ways, but to be taken with a pinch of salt, I’d say. Needs to be cross-referenced to where people actually go on a regular/frequent basis methinks. Cafes and coffee shops seem very popular almost everywhere, for instance.

[freiston]

I’d love to do an experiment in which all those things magically materialise within 15 minutes of all the participants, and their actual frequency of use of each thing is measured.

It’s just that I don’t believe 90% of people would use the bus on a regular basis even f there was one, in fact I doubt that % of people did when buss were the prime means of transport above walking and cycling, and quite why so many want a bank nearby when banks have shut in droves due to lack of patronage I’m mystified by.

Useful in in some ways, but to be taken with a pinch of salt, I’d say. Needs to be cross-referenced to where people actually go on a regular/frequent basis methinks. Cafes and coffee shops seem very popular almost everywhere, for instance.

The thing is, I reckon they're stuck in a "here and now" perception and the poll probably doesn't address that. For instance, if all the other things were within 15 minutes walking distance and people actually did walk to them, then how many of them would no longer need a bus? But highest on the list is a bus stop. They're thinking of all those items in terms of what they need now, not how different life would be with the convenience and lack of traffic a 15 minute city would enable - many will still be thinking in terms of needing and wanting a car.

I used to know a woman with many health problems over decades that meant she couldn't work - she relied on benefits and got social housing (& housing benefit) because of her problems. I once bought a lottery ticket and told her we'll split the winnings if we're lucky - she panicked about winning the jackpot because the money would disqualify her from housing benefit and she would become homeless. It hadn't occurred to her that she wouldn't need housing benefit and could buy her own place, she just knew that all her life she had relied on it for a roof over her head and she couldn't imagine an alternative - it's the same with a lot of car drivers (and even those that don't drive but rely on others where there's no adequate bus service) - they can't imagine the alternative and only think in terms of their current dependencies even when an alternative is being suggested.

[Lance Dopestrong]

It’s just that I don’t believe 90% of people would use the bus on a regular basis even f there was one, in fact I doubt that % of people did when buss were the prime means of transport above walking and cycling, and quite why so many want a bank nearby when banks have shut in droves due to lack of patronage I’m mystified by.

I expect you're correct. Their houses could be simultaneously inundated with floodwater and ablaze due to climate change and the typical motorist would still drive their kids 400 metres to school.

That being the case whether a bank, shop, or exotic massage parlour, etc is a 15 minute walk or a 15 minute drive away doesn't really matter as people will still drive either until absolutely forced to stop doing so.

There was a piece on out local TV news recently about dodgy parking outside a school, and the TV folk interviewed a few of these drivers, one of whom said "I have to drive, its a 20 minute walk." That sums up how willing people are to avoid walking even short distances.

[mattheus]

I’d love to do an experiment in which all those things magically materialise within 15 minutes of all the participants, and their actual frequency of use of each thing is measured.

I like having bus stops on my estate for folks who can't drive (and cos it might reduce some pollution/congestion if a few drivers use them.Hopefully!).

And I would like to have an A&E nearby AND ALSO would like to never need it

[Bmblbzzz]

I expect Freiston's right about the "stuck in the here and now" mentality. However – having your day-to-day needs within walking distance doesn't mean you never need or want to travel further. For instance, to visit friends and relatives. Or simply to go to work (notably lacking from the list).

[Nearholmer]

Agree.

And, TBH, spending your entire life within a one mile radius because everything you need on regular basis is that close would drive most people round the bend, it certainly did me during Lockdown 1, so you’d want a bike and a bus-stop for days out.

I couldn’t work out why work wasn’t on the list …. maybe the present paradigm again

Just out of interest, I had a quick bash at compiling a needs table based on my household, being four of us and a dog:

Facility Person visits per week

Country park 16
Primary school 12
Secondary school 10
Supermarket 7
Gym 6*
Cafe. 8***
Football field 4**
Corner shop. 4
Work outside home 3*
Museum/gallery/outing 1****
Post/parcel office. 0.5*
Cash machine. 0.5
Doctor 0.5
Barber/Hairdresser. 0.25
Pub. 0.5
Hospital 0.125**
Post box 0.125
Bank. <0.1

All within 15 minutes walk, or <10 minutes cycle, except: *= 20 minutes cycle; **= 15 minutes drive to practice, but can be an hour drive if playing an away match; ***= a bit daft really, because this can be up to 120 minutes cycling away, or a ten minute walk, being “outing” destinations; ****=big, all day outing by car or train.

[freiston]

I agree too

Back in the 1990s, I was in a barber shop in my home town, waiting my turn, and there was an old bloke talking about how he was brought up in a village about 6½ miles out of town. Up until the age of 21, he had never been further than the neighbouring village (a mile closer to town) but at reaching that age, his dad took him to the market in town. As much as I like the idea of 15 minute cities and as much as I dislike the "need" for personal motorised transport, I also do like to get out and about a bit and I'm very much in favour of useful, functional and accessible public transport provision.

[mattheus]

I expect Freiston's right about the "stuck in the here and now" mentality. However – having your day-to-day needs within walking distance doesn't mean you never need or want to travel further. For instance, to visit friends and relatives. Or simply to go to work (notably lacking from the list).

Of course it doesn't! What's your point?

[Lance Dopestrong]

An old by I know is 84. He does a paper round on his bike around the town he lives and the nearby villages.

And today we've awoken to snow. Cars are in ditches, workplaces are closed, but this 84 year old diabetic man with a pacemaker has already been on the blower proudly telling me that he's been out on his ancient and none too flash Ammoco rigid MTB and delivered every paper.

This proves that many, perhaps most, of us have no need for 15 minute cities and everything we could reasonably want or need is accessible without a car or even public transport if only folk weren't so bone idle lazy.