Debate on 15 minute cities on Radio 4 now.

[Jdsk]

Some Oxford bus services were reduced in 2021/2022:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-o ... e-59415045

East Oxford recently tested a bus calling system. It has been discontinued.

A new passenger rail service to Cowley might just happen:
https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/yourn ... nger-line/

Doubtless to the disquiet of conspiracy theorists, the only way to sort all this to achieve sustainability and ‘liveability’, is to take an integrated approach, considering transport and land-use planning (which gets into zoning, and the location of jobs and services) together.

Yes. And even with an integrated plan the implementation will always look patchy.

Jonathan

[rareposter]

I would use a bus for a very short and simple one-bus journey, but no more than that. And I am entitled to use them for free.

That last sentence of yours is a very pertinent point - I sort of alluded to it with my earlier comment about £2 fares being a good idea but useless if the bus service is patchy but you've highlighted it more definitively.

Price is not the only barrier to using the service - it has to be frequent and reliable and safe. Even if it's free, you're not going to use an unreliable, infrequent or unsafe service.
And at the moment, with buses snarled in traffic, it's not frequent or reliable.

The safety thing gets a bit more involved, depends on area, deprivation index, ridership and all sorts. Manchester quite routinely deploys large numbers of highly visible patrols backed up with police to manage anti-social behaviour on the trams but it's a very expensive way of dealing with the problems.

[mattheus]

Bus gates can dramatically increase the speed and reliability of a service - a new one on Deansgate in Manchester cut minutes off the bus time. There was much anger in the local press about how it was quicker to walk through the bus gate than it was to drive around it prompting a host of satirical responses on Twitter including the very obvious one about that being the entire point of it.

Exactly.

[mattheus]

Whilst I’m in favour of 15 minutes cities, they could be a much better way to live, people are right to be concerned that something reasonable is not twisted into something completely different. One really doesn’t have to look far back in time or look many thousand miles away to see how liberties have been taken away under some pretext or other.

Can you be more specific please?

Then we can take a reasoned look at whether your example can inform us as to the likely direction of the current plans.

Now it’s important to keep a sense of proportion and that’s hard when the examples that come to mind are extreme, but to some extent they were progressive in their implementation. Of course your or my judgment as to the likely direction of things is one thing and people’s fears and concerns another. Let’s focus on their concerns and nit rubbish people.

For a moment let’s think back at the Covid lockdown and being restricted to an hour’s exercise outside; that whole things was mentally painful to many people and some are still suffering. I met an old friend - who is aged too - this morning; he told me this this morning was the first time he’d ventured far (half a mile) from home in the best part of three years.

Of course we, in this country, faired relatively well with Covid controls … I have some contact with a friend in China and it was grim there in that totalitarian country. Totalitarian is what folk fear; think the German enclosure of Jews in Ghettos, think Afghanistan, think Iran. Those things could never happen here … or could they? We only need to look towards Northern Ireland to see how crazy things can get … Belfast had lots of no go areas, segregation and control of movement.

Now let’s look at the recent removal of rights on Dartmoor. The rich can enjoy their estates unbothered by grubby ordinary folk, a small leap of imagination says if the masses were to be confined then the rich and influential could enjoy the countryside and their assets so much more.

It’s important to keep a sense of proportion but sometimes the nutty people are proven right; I’d quite like to live in a 15 minute city but such an idyllic situation could be twisted into something completely different and be inadvertent steps along a road we’ll regret taking.

Carlton, my dear chap,

Can you please state if you think these are reasonable examples of how "things can escalate"? Or are you just showing how the mind of a swivel-eyed loon MIGHT work?
If the latter, I can assure you that your post is doing no good at all - if it does affect any reader, it will be to seed (or promote) the idea that actually traffic filters ARE similar to the Nazis putting jews in a ghetto and then exterminating them in gas chambers. We could also look at the Covid comparison - do we still HAVE a lockdown? Were the pandemic restrictions really the start of something more sinister, more controlling?


Please tell me what your intent is in posting this twaddle, and if you are debating in good faith.

[Carlton green]

Carlton, my dear chap,

Can you please state if you think these are reasonable examples of how "things can escalate"? Or are you just showing how the mind of a swivel-eyed loon MIGHT work?
If the latter, I can assure you that your post is doing no good at all - if it does affect any reader, it will be to seed (or promote) the idea that actually traffic filters ARE similar to the Nazis putting jews in a ghetto and then exterminating them in gas chambers. We could also look at the Covid comparison - do we still HAVE a lockdown? Were the pandemic restrictions really the start of something more sinister, more controlling?


Please tell me what your intent is in posting this twaddle, and if you are debating in good faith.

I’m sorry that I’ve somehow not come across to you as clear. My purpose was to put a different perspective on the discussion and to do so from what I perceive as the perspective of a concerned protester. Swivel-eyed loon; well arguably, with the likes of Mog in the Commons and a House of Lords that has been filled with nominated Conservative Party Lords (Political opponents), we’ve many of those in positions of authority. Swivel-eyed loon, how did we get Truss as a PM?

A point that I’ve tried to make is that, however unlikely we think it to be (and for clarification I do think it very unlikely), 15 minute cities could be used (abused) to manage and control populations. Rather than saying ‘that’s not the purpose’ or ‘that could never happen’ I’d ask readers to be more open minded, more questioning and more aware that the unimaginable does sometimes happen.

Something unimaginable:

On 24 February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine in a major escalation of the Russo-Ukrainian War, which began in 2014. The invasion has caused tens of thousands of deaths on both sides and instigated Europe's largest refugee crisis since World War II. About 8 million Ukrainians were displaced within their country by June, and more than 8 million fled the country by February 2023.

My underlining.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russ ... of_Ukraine

[mattheus]

...

I’d ask readers to be more open minded, more questioning and more aware that the unimaginable does sometimes happen.

Something unimaginable:

On 24 February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine in a major escalation of the Russo-Ukrainian War, which began in 2014. The invasion has caused tens of thousands of deaths on both sides and instigated Europe's largest refugee crisis since World War II. About 8 million Ukrainians were displaced within their country by June, and more than 8 million fled the country by February 2023.

My underlining.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russ ... of_Ukraine

You cannot be serious. That was faaaaar from unimaginable! After all, they annexed Crimea 8 years earlier, and ... well I could go on.

So now you're comparing Oxford council with Putin. Surely this is a wind-up - in which case, well played!

[mattheus]

Yes, the conspiracist-libertarian-right is somehow being mobilised. It’s difficult to know who might be facilitating that, because there are so many possible interests at play, not just those you mention. And, of course, it all breeds in some real issues. If you [*] have to schlepp across town under your own steam at six o’clock on a winter morning, to work in a warehouse for national minimum pay, and can’t for the life of you see how you might ever be able to afford to marry, get a home, and bring up a family, you could easily feel marginalised, resent the world, and conclude that it is conspiring against you.

*redacted to make more sense. Forgive me!

Now THIS, I get; if you're put in a crap life situation, and think you've got the bad end of the deal, I can see people getting peeved at those with better lives and in power.

But that's no excuse for educated owners of bicycles and an internet connection posting illogical fallacious connections between bananas and earthquakes, etc etc ...

[Carlton green]

...

I’d ask readers to be more open minded, more questioning and more aware that the unimaginable does sometimes happen.

Something unimaginable:

On 24 February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine in a major escalation of the Russo-Ukrainian War, which began in 2014. The invasion has caused tens of thousands of deaths on both sides and instigated Europe's largest refugee crisis since World War II. About 8 million Ukrainians were displaced within their country by June, and more than 8 million fled the country by February 2023.

My underlining.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russ ... of_Ukraine

You cannot be serious. That was faaaaar from unimaginable! After all, they annexed Crimea 8 years earlier, and ... well I could go on.

So now you're comparing Oxford council with Putin. Surely this is a wind-up - in which case, well played!

Err no, indeed I’m not comparing Oxford Council with anyone and have never mentioned any council in any of my posts. What I have instead talked about is 15 minute cities in broad terms, I’m sorry if I’ve somehow mislead you.

As for Putin, well the countries that are now in the process of joining NATO never imagined that they would need to. Note that the part I underlined included Europe’s largest refuge crisis since the Second World War, I don’t think that many people imagined that.

I would point out that in general, and without wishing to wind anyone up, that the unexpected does happen and it can have serious consequences. Heck, the USA elected Trump as their president; he was a complete outsider (*) and has caused general chaos both within the USA and the Western World.

* 150/1 https://sbcnews.co.uk/featurednews/2016 ... ing-story/

Black Lives Matter interventions https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-53520650

Capital Hill Riot. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56004916

[Biospace]

Ridiculing those who don't automatically or naturally trust government to always act humanely and ethically shows a lack of understanding of human nature as well as history. Any legislation which restricts behaviour central to free and open society should have rapid annulment clauses written in, should conditions or reasons significantly change. With big business bending the ear of our regulators more than ever, I don't see why a cautious approach should be seen as odd.

However, the idea of the 15 minute city is fabulous to my thinking, it will be very interesting to see how they develop and by how much motor traffic is reduced, by how much congestion is reduced. Quality of life for many in England is a good bit lower than in other European nations.

Our approach to slowing urban traffic with 'speed humps' is a clear demonstration of the simplistic levels of thinking many in government use; I would have prefered to see cars legislated to be narrower, lighter and less powerful, to see better public transport for those trying to travel in to cities from surrounding areas and better local amenities before we start closing off roads. But, it's better than doing nothing. I look forwards to seeing the results.

As an aside, conception to realisation has been pretty quick, is this a record of some sort for what is pretty significant change?

[mattheus]

Any legislation which restricts behaviour central to free and open society should have rapid annulment clauses written in, should conditions or reasons significantly change.

Show me an example of town planners doing this in the UK.

With big business bending the ear of our regulators more than ever, I don't see why a cautious approach should be seen as odd.

Would a cautions approach include reading up on what a new scheme actually involves? Or would you just join any street protest that comes along, and spread gossip on the internet?

[Biospace]

Any legislation which restricts behaviour central to free and open society should have rapid annulment clauses written in, should conditions or reasons significantly change.

Show me an example of town planners doing this in the UK.

With big business bending the ear of our regulators more than ever, I don't see why a cautious approach should be seen as odd.

Would a cautions approach include reading up on what a new scheme actually involves? Or would you just join any street protest that comes along, and spread gossip on the internet?

Going purely on how you've responded to my post which calls 15 minute cities a "fabulous idea", but with a caveat that we shouldn't ridicule those who naturally question rather than naturally trust government, you come over as a particularly keen planning officer or other official with a passionate hatred for anyone who disagrees with you personal perspective on life.

I'm aware a lot can be lost in the written word and having read plenty more posts written in your name, I do hope I'm wrong

[pga]

What next for the conspiracists? I have lived in a 15 minute city since 1976 and have not been forced out of a car - quite the opposite. Milton Keynes was designed that every housing estate within the grid roads to have a primary school, shops, health centre, meeting place, open space and playing fields within 15 minutes walk. Pubs, churches and the like were never far away.

At the same time, however, the grid roads provide free and easy movement for cars which is a growing problem with a populace that has become car dependent. Obesity is high among all age groups. The Council is frightened stiff of the car lobby. Hence, we see local planning decisions rejecting underpasses and bridges crossings of grid roads and other main roads including the M1.

Climate change seems a long way from sunny Milton Keynes.

[Nearholmer]

Ditto.

I mentioned back up thread how the car-centric design of the place dating from 50 years ago contrasts with the 15 minuteness which also dates from 50 years ago (which shows that that part isn’t a new idea).

Out of interest, where was another bridge over the M1 proposed but rejected?

And, as a footnote, obesity is the same in MK as the England average, which is ….. wait for it ….. 28% of people classed as obese (and another 36% classed as overweight but not obese). Active travel anyone?

[Stevek76]

there may well be a lot of problems imposing on areas not designed for it.
Ironic they're trying to cut down on car use in Oxford, a city that has enjoyed much prosperity from making the things for a century or more.

If there's one thing pre ww2 urban areas are not built for it was the motor car. Once motor car dominance became an obvious problem, residential areas were built as cul-de-sacs or other measures to remove through traffic by standard. Measures to filter out through traffic from older areas are a response to deal with the many problems that vastly increased levels of motor vehicles have imposed upon then

[mattheus]

<snip> ...

Going purely on how you've responded to my post which calls 15 minute cities a "fabulous idea", but with a caveat that we shouldn't ridicule those who naturally question rather than naturally trust government, you come over as a particularly keen planning officer or other official with a passionate hatred for anyone who disagrees with you personal perspective on life.

I'm aware a lot can be lost in the written word and having read plenty more posts written in your name, I do hope I'm wrong

Whilst pausing briefly to thankyou for your kind words, may I observe that:
blind mistrust in government is just as bad as
blind trust.

It's ludicrous to protest against something just on principle that "we don't trust the government". Why not actually check what they are proposing first?