Debate on 15 minute cities on Radio 4 now.

[Nearholmer]

We’re drifting, or have drifted, from the core topic, but ……

The trouble with arguments, or contentious points in general, is that they aren’t usually won by the exposition of cold, clean logic, and never have been.

People aren’t all logicians, and even those of us who pride ourselves on being such are riding for a fall on that point. We are all, to lesser or greater degrees, emotional , semi-irrational beings, so arguments are won as much by appeals to the heart as to the head.

When it comes to something like 15 minute cities, it needs some people locally to galvanise support for the concept, not by showing a load of graphs for instance, but by getting to people’s positive emotions around the subject. A large gaggle of parents with kids in pushchairs, or the entire membership of the pensioners’ club waving their walking sticks in favour of freedom to walk about without getting run over or poisoned by exhaust gasses would make a powerful counter image to the Druid of the Diesels.

[pete75]

Councilors received death threats: https://cherwell.org/2023/01/14/oxford- ... -lockdown/

The council gave very clear answers to these concerns, published in several outlets:
https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/23179 ... k-council/

That was in December; there have been several more, and yet "sceptics" keep spreading lies about the schemes. Is that OK?

Here's a simple example for the protestors to digest:

" "If a vehicle passes through the filter at certain times of the day, the camera will read the number plate and (if you do not have an exemption or a residents’ permit) you will receive a fine in the post.

"Residents will still be able to drive to every part of the city at any time – but in the future, during certain times of the day, you may need to take a different route (e.g. using the ring road) if you want to travel by car." "

Then they followed up with another go:
https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/23177 ... ref=twtrec
"

Will Oxford residents be confined to their local area?

No.

The misinformation online has linked the traffic filters to the 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal in the City Council’s Local Plan 2040, suggesting that the traffic filters will be used to confine people to their local area. This is not true.

The 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal aims to ensure that every resident has all the essentials (shops, healthcare, parks) within a 15-minute walk of their home. They aim to support and add services, not restrict them.

For the benefit of Oxford residents, what we are aiming to do is to ensure that areas of the city such as Barton, Blackbird Leys and Rose Hill have all the essential services that areas such as East Oxford and Jericho already have.
"

(I've italicised the last bit, as it's something oft-overlooked in the discussion)

The first article linked to contains the sentence " The filters have no effect on buses, bicycles, or pedestrians and are apparently expected to generate about £1.1 million in fines." Per annum, per month, per week? Is it just being done as a revenue generating exercise? The council invest £6.5 million in the scheme and receives an annual income of a million quid indefinitely. Good investment really.

[mattheus]

Almost every place in the UK predates WW2 by quite a bit.

Why do I have to look on Streetview to see what a place I've been to many times looks like? Not everyone gains all their experiences online. You're right though, there are a lot of old buildings in the centre of Oxford. Many of them need demolishing to make way for proper roads to suit the level of car ownership in the place.

I live by a post-WW2 town centre. It has plenty of congestion, but it would be worse if you dropped Oxford Town Centre into the middle, so there's that. Milton Keynes is another (well, city actually), already discussed here. 1960s IIRC, quarter of a million people live there now.

[You did want a pointless off-topic argument, right? I really hope I haven't misread your hints! ]

[WillCycle]

15-minute neighbourhoods and LTNs are demonstrably NOT about curtailing freedoms. Anyone remains free to drive just as much as before. All LTNs do is remove rat-running through-traffic, and how can anyone possibly think of that as a negative thing? LTNs are proved to reduce transport-related air pollution, and reduce traffic levels. Again, how is any of that bad?

How do LTNs achieve that? By making it easier to walk, cycle of take public transport, than to drive. The vast majority of journeys in the UK are below 5 miles, which most (not all) can cycle with relative ease. Why would anyone prefer to instead have more cars, more noise, more pollution and more road deaths?

15-minute neighbourhoods simply means (almost) everything you need is within 15 minutes, either on foot, scooting, roller-skating, cycling or by taking the bus. Again, what exactly is somehow wrong with that? No, if you can't work from home (and many people can't) 15-minute neighbourhoods don't mean your job will suddenly be magically be closer. Some will still need to drive to get to work, but guess what? Combined with LTNs, there's traffic reduction, so it's still an improved journey for those that need to drive, too.

Where's the conspiracy theories coming from? How can anyone not see how simple and positive 15-minute neighbourhoods are?

[pete75]

Almost every place in the UK predates WW2 by quite a bit.

Why do I have to look on Streetview to see what a place I've been to many times looks like? Not everyone gains all their experiences online. You're right though, there are a lot of old buildings in the centre of Oxford. Many of them need demolishing to make way for proper roads to suit the level of car ownership in the place.

I live by a post-WW2 town centre. It has plenty of congestion, but it would be worse if you dropped Oxford Town Centre into the middle, so there's that. Milton Keynes is another (well, city actually), already discussed here. 1960s IIRC, quarter of a million people live there now.

[You did want a pointless off-topic argument, right? I really hope I haven't misread your hints! ]

The type of built environment where LTN and 15 minute cities are to be implemented is hardly off topic.

[mjr]

Oh I think I see the problem: Oxford seem to be ignoring best practice. Look at the map: https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/sites/de ... ingMap.pdf

Now compare with a successful circulation plan (Leuven):


A good plan has the main access route for each zone as a loop in and out (white on the above map, indicating no colour zone permit is needed), not a through. As a result of trying to make small corridor zones, Oxford are putting in 17 barriers in the red zone (which is more likely to cause upset than 4 or so) and the shortest route to drive between zones is in to the edge of the centre and back out, not out to the ring road and back in like Leuven. I'm not sure what Oxford are trying to do there or how it will possibly achieve the claimed results.

[mattheus]

Oh I think I see the problem: Oxford seem to be ignoring best practice. Look at the map: https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/sites/de ... ingMap.pdf

Now compare with a successful circulation plan (Leuven):
https://ecf.com/sites/ecf.com/files/cir ... leuven.jpg

A good plan has the main access route for each zone as a loop in and out (white on the above map, indicating no colour zone permit is needed), not a through. As a result of trying to make small corridor zones, Oxford are putting in 17 barriers in the red zone (which is more likely to cause upset than 4 or so) and the shortest route to drive between zones is in to the edge of the centre and back out, not out to the ring road and back in like Leuven. I'm not sure what Oxford are trying to do there or how it will possibly achieve the claimed results.

Good points, but I think you should acknowledge that this analysis is taken from the Patriotic Alternative's website.

[Cugel]

Oh I think I see the problem: Oxford seem to be ignoring best practice. Look at the map: https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/sites/de ... ingMap.pdf

Now compare with a successful circulation plan (Leuven):
https://ecf.com/sites/ecf.com/files/cir ... leuven.jpg

A good plan has the main access route for each zone as a loop in and out (white on the above map, indicating no colour zone permit is needed), not a through. As a result of trying to make small corridor zones, Oxford are putting in 17 barriers in the red zone (which is more likely to cause upset than 4 or so) and the shortest route to drive between zones is in to the edge of the centre and back out, not out to the ring road and back in like Leuven. I'm not sure what Oxford are trying to do there or how it will possibly achieve the claimed results.

Good points, but I think you should acknowledge that this analysis is taken from the Patriotic Alternative's website.

That fellow with the placard-of-self-certitude looks like he could do with a bit more walking and cycling. He definitely hasn't been "right so far" about his diet and barber, one feels.

Does the combat jacket signify that those who are not-him ... and therefore highly likely to be wrong-so-far .... will be dealt with by a vigorous bit of "combat", including the use of the jackboots not captured in the photo? But perhaps he prefers the more usual run-'em-over with his car-weapon?

Cugel, laying about with stereotypes in all directions. C'mon - It's the current fashion!

[mjr]

I acknowledge that mattheus is reposting Patriotic Alternative material.

Are they called Patriotic Alternative here because Alternative für Deutschland doesn't get enough shares?

[mattheus]

I acknowledge that mattheus is reposting Patriotic Alternative material.

Are they called Patriotic Alternative here because Alternative für Deutschland doesn't get enough shares?

I don't know - I hadn't heard of them until last week!

Anyway, my slightly-whimsical point was that your analysis may be fine, but do you really think similar analysis is what led to the protests, or the millions of rather silly social meeja posts spreading misinformation and ill-directed paranoia?

[Stevek76]

I'm not sure what Oxford are trying to do there or how it will possibly achieve the claimed results.

I think they think they're avoiding upset by not doing a full circulation plan. Note that each oxford resident car only has to actually avoid the filters between 07:00 & 19:00 on 256 days a year (and two of the filters don't apply on Sundays), and that it only applies to non taxi M1 class vehicles. Everything else is entirely unaffected.

Between this and not pedestrianising the central core (which to be fair is likely rather trickier here legally than it is in many european places, as you have to put a fairly solid case together to remove access to properties for any class of vehicle for more than 16hrs per day) they then have to filter off all the side roads between Iffley and Cowley Rds as they will continue to be used to jump between the two corridors.

[toontra]

It's pretty clear what's going on here. People who, for whatever reason, are being drawn into the anti-LTN/15MC world view should really be asking themselves who they are getting into bed with.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... gners-warn

[pete75]

I acknowledge that mattheus is reposting Patriotic Alternative material.

Are they called Patriotic Alternative here because Alternative für Deutschland doesn't get enough shares?

One of their leadership speaking in Hull. Never been able to understand the patriotic mindset - as GBS said “Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it....”

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hu ... ar-8058010

[jgurney]

Yes, the conspiracist-libertarian-right is somehow being mobilised. It’s difficult to know who might be facilitating that,

One group who I believe have been promoting it for some time is the alternative "medicine" industry, from rational if dishonourable motives.
For several years before the pandemic, I had been noticing that various publications concerned with 'alternative' lifestyles, many of them carrying a lot of advertising for complimentary and alternative medicine, were showing a distinct drift towards the right. The motive was clear enough: deregulation, or a 'bonfire of red tape', as purveyors of alternative medicines would naturally benefit from less regulation of advertising.

They certainly press the boundaries of what is allowed: I have a file of alternative medicine promotors that I have reported to the ASA. One particularly nasty case involved someone whose advert amounted to saying 'if you are having a panic attack or are in crisis, send me £50 and I will immediately send you psychic support, you may not be able to feel it but it will be there'. The ASA, to their credit, promptly put a stop to that.
A more recent case involved someone offering cereal bars including "monatomic gold". The advertiser asserted that this monatomic gold was significantly different from ordinary gold and had near-miraculous health-giving properties. In reality, all gold is monatomic and the most likely effect of ingesting small quantites of fine gold dust is that it will come out the other end without engaging in any chemical process on route: gold is famously unreactive. They were told not to repeat the advert.

[pete75]

Yes, the conspiracist-libertarian-right is somehow being mobilised. It’s difficult to know who might be facilitating that,

One group who I believe have been promoting it for some time is the alternative "medicine" industry, from rational if dishonourable motives.
For several years before the pandemic, I had been noticing that various publications concerned with 'alternative' lifestyles, many of them carrying a lot of advertising for complimentary and alternative medicine, were showing a distinct drift towards the right. The motive was clear enough: deregulation, or a 'bonfire of red tape', as purveyors of alternative medicines would naturally benefit from less regulation of advertising.

They certainly press the boundaries of what is allowed: I have a file of alternative medicine promotors that I have reported to the ASA. One particularly nasty case involved someone whose advert amounted to saying 'if you are having a panic attack or are in crisis, send me £50 and I will immediately send you psychic support, you may not be able to feel it but it will be there'. The ASA, to their credit, promptly put a stop to that.
A more recent case involved someone offering cereal bars including "monatomic gold". The advertiser asserted that this monatomic gold was significantly different from ordinary gold and had near-miraculous health-giving properties. In reality, all gold is monatomic and the most likely effect of ingesting small quantites of fine gold dust is that it will come out the other end without engaging in any chemical process on route: gold is famously unreactive. They were told not to repeat the advert.

Very good work.