New Shimano CUES groupset

[rareposter]

There's a decent video explanation of it here:
https://youtu.be/zmVIfmXbZ5A

At the moment it's little more than a "soft launch", a sort of "here's what will be phased in over the next few years..."

How will the different speeds work?

Seems to be the same pull ratios, same sprocket spacing across everything so you can use any rear mech so long as the shifter moving it has the right number of clicks (for example). Same chain for all speeds so that's a huge improvement in terms of manufacturing efficiency and stock control. In theory, it would seem to greatly improve cross compatibility which would be a big help for bike shops everywhere!

Same for the hubs - using sealed bearings makes it much easier to have hubs interchangeable with theu-axle and QR.

it's horrid and I hope it doesn't come to road bikes.

It will but probably not for another year or so and even then it'll only slowly be replacing Claris, Tiagra etc. Phase in seems to be over at least one product cycle (4 years) which should mean a gradual move to Cues rather than yet another groupset and parts list for shops to have to deal with.
It'll come in on new city/hybrid bikes first, then when a drop bar range is launched, that'll start to appear on entry level road bikes from, I'm guessing, 2025 bikes (so maybe appearing in shops late 2024).

Linkglide is an evolution from e-bikes so the cassette and chain are designed to be far more durable.

I guess this is also the final farewell to shining silver parts, and probably 36H hubs as well, at least in the sense that these things will become marginalized to an extreme degree.

36H hubs are a hangover from the days where you only had narrow aluminium rims and could only fit max 35c tyres into most touring frames. With modern wider, stronger rims, you can build up perfectly strong touring wheels on 28 or 32 hole and even most road bikes can take 30c tyres; touring/gravel bikes will take 700x50c easily now. Even my e-cargo bike has 32H hubs so the idea that a touring bike "needs" 36H for strength is wildly outdated.

[freiston]

I'm all for an across the board cable pull ratio and chain/sprocket functionality: the current situation is a shambles. I'm also all for a cassette designed to wear better/last longer. Glad to see that it fits on HG freehubs but disappointed that all cassettes come with two smallest cogs of 11T & 13T but at least it seems they are replaceable.

I'm not so happy about the ditching of the triple chainset and I suspect that the direction will be very wide ratio cassettes with little up front (x1) for most "leisure" bikes with closer ratios on cassettes and a close ratio double up front for the road bikes (maybe something wider - 30/48?). This makes me concerned that the rear mechs will have limited capacity and that anyone wanting 47T capacity for a triple chainset with a 36T cassette will have to look elsewhere. Triple front changers could become very niche items made by the smaller niche manufacturers?

Likewise, I'm not so happy about the complete lack of choice when it comes to brake systems but thankfully there are other options available from other manufacturers - though levers could be an issue, especially if integrated with shifters.

Shimano must have made a lot of sales based on people upgrading/replacing components that don't work well with other groupsets and with people replacing cassettes when they replace chains and rear mechs. If the new cassettes are going to last three times as long, and if existing components will work well with replacement components, I can only think that Shimano will recoup their lost sales with a higher premium cost, at least when sold as aftermarket products rather than on mass produced complete bikes - otherwise entry level new bikes could get very expensive.

[freiston]

I've still got a lot to learn/catch up on - Linkglide cassettes are already available (presumably due to Linkglide being released in 2021 for ebikes?) and £60 from SJS (link)

[rareposter]

Shimano must have made a lot of sales based on people upgrading/replacing components that don't work well with other groupsets and with people replacing cassettes when they replace chains and rear mechs. If the new cassettes are going to last three times as long, and if existing components will work well with replacement components, I can only think that Shimano will recoup their lost sales with a higher premium cost, at least when sold as aftermarket products rather than on mass produced complete bikes - otherwise entry level new bikes could get very expensive.

I'd guess that their production costs will be dramatically lower with what is essentially one groupset across the board. Far simpler supply chain and logistics. That should cut costs their end and mean that pricing doesn't need to be increased (obviously exchange rate between yen, dollar and pound will continue to have an effect).

Yes, LinkGlide has been around for a couple of years, the original notion was to make something far harder wearing for the greatly increased torque that e-bikes put through drivetrains (which is why the 11 and 13T sprockets are individually replaceable because a large number of e-bikers simply leave it in a high gear and use the power of the motor rather than changing gear a lot!). I've seen e-bikes with absolutely trashed 11T sprockets and the rest of the cassette near immaculate.
However they would obviously work fine on non-e bikes as well and they'd last a lot longer - which could mean that overall, Shimano don't have to manufacture and ship as many cassettes therefore costs are again lowered.

[TrevA]

Just watched the latest video on A Path Less Pedaled. Shimano are introducing a new 1:1 pull ratio for the new CUES groupsets, so they won’t be backwards compatible with any of their existing groupsets. So it’s time to stock up on rear mechs for your existing 8,9, 10 and 11 speed systems, as you won’t be able to use a CUES rear mech with them.

[zenitb]

Just watched the latest video on A Path Less Pedaled. Shimano are introducing a new 1:1 pull ratio for the new CUES groupsets, so they won’t be backwards compatible with any of their existing groupsets. So it’s time to stock up on rear mechs for your existing 8,9, 10 and 11 speed systems, as you won’t be able to use a CUES rear mech with them.

Interesting Trev. That sounds like they have indadvertantly made themselves SRAM compatible !!! See this quote:

• "..Rather than work to a common standard, Shimano, Campagnolo, and SRAM have all developed their own specifications for their indexed gear systems. SRAM mechanical gear levers employ 1:1 actuation" (from https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/mixing- ... -doesnt-2/)

My Sram GX groupset on my mountain bike has always been very precise and I cant remember ever adjusting it. So maybe the 1:1 ratio is just Shimano copying what works ?

[zenitb]

Shimano's patent on HG Hyperglide has expired, which is why they roll out the new "Linkglide" everywhere they can in order to keep the competition away from making compatible hubs, chains, sprockets and chainsets.
...

That's a fair point that I hadnt considered interestedcp. Its akin to the big pharmacutical companies making minor changes to a drug and re-patenting it to preserve their monopoly. Vendors always try and swap out Shimano parts for generic ones on new bikes so I suppose this forces them to at least buy the cassette, mech and shifters, and with integration of brakes seemingly obligatory on CUES, the brakes as well

[zenitb]

I'm all for an across the board cable pull ratio and chain/sprocket functionality: the current situation is a shambles.

Completly agree.

I'm also all for a cassette designed to wear better/last longer. Glad to see that it fits on HG freehubs but disappointed that all cassettes come with two smallest cogs of 11T & 13T but at least it seems they are replaceable.

I'm not an ebiker yet but I can see the value on my tandem...

I'm not so happy about the ditching of the triple chainset and I suspect that the direction will be very wide ratio cassettes with little up front (x1) for most "leisure" bikes with closer ratios on cassettes and a close ratio double up front for the road bikes (maybe something wider - 30/48?). This makes me concerned that the rear mechs will have limited capacity and that anyone wanting 47T capacity for a triple chainset with a 36T cassette will have to look elsewhere. Triple front changers could become very niche items made by the smaller niche manufacturers?

Agreed .. we will have to find out how normal OEM vendors chainrings work with Lyncglyde...or whether Shimano think this is somehow protected by their patent.

Likewise, I'm not so happy about the complete lack of choice when it comes to brake systems but thankfully there are other options available from other manufacturers - though levers could be an issue, especially if integrated with shifters.

Classic Shimano MO since 1991 Deore XT STi is to try and tie you in with integrated shifters. If this gets really bad with CUES then I guess Microshift, Sturmey Archer et al could just keep selling the old ratio shifters to us. Much in the same way that many of us buy square taper chainsets from Spa Cycles and SJS

Shimano must have made a lot of sales based on people upgrading/replacing components that don't work well with other groupsets and with people replacing cassettes when they replace chains and rear mechs. If the new cassettes are going to last three times as long, and if existing components will work well with replacement components, I can only think that Shimano will recoup their lost sales with a higher premium cost, at least when sold as aftermarket products rather than on mass produced complete bikes - otherwise entry level new bikes could get very expensive.

Looking at the target market for the initial CUES release I wonder how many of their target users ever wear out their chain and cassette before buying the next bike - or ditching it in the shed. Call me a cynic but with Lyncglide could Shimano be aiming a "lifetime" components for the average casual user? Their focus has always been on new bike complete groupsets rather than selling individual components IMO.

[PH]

Still looks to me to be optimised for E-bikes with anyone else having it thrust upon them, or having to go up the hierarchy to enthusiasts level. That's hardly surprising, it's what most people, other than some of the enthusiasts, are likely to be riding within a few years. There does seem to be a lot of gains in the system, but it's too early to know what the trade-off will be - More durable, great but how heavy? Matched cable pull, that sounds great as well, but it means running an 11 speed chain on your 8speed set-up, maybe not so great. Then any cassette under 11 speed will need spacers, when ideally you could have had a stronger wheel without them.
Time will tell, but one size fits all is rarely a good fit for anyone let alone everyone.

[Bmblbzzz]

Just watched the latest video on A Path Less Pedaled. Shimano are introducing a new 1:1 pull ratio for the new CUES groupsets, so they won’t be backwards compatible with any of their existing groupsets. So it’s time to stock up on rear mechs for your existing 8,9, 10 and 11 speed systems, as you won’t be able to use a CUES rear mech with them.

Interesting Trev. That sounds like they have indadvertantly made themselves SRAM compatible !!! See this quote:

• "..Rather than work to a common standard, Shimano, Campagnolo, and SRAM have all developed their own specifications for their indexed gear systems. SRAM mechanical gear levers employ 1:1 actuation" (from https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/mixing- ... -doesnt-2/)

My Sram GX groupset on my mountain bike has always been very precise and I cant remember ever adjusting it. So maybe the 1:1 ratio is just Shimano copying what works ?

Interesting. I knew Cues was not backwards compatible with existing Shimano systems, but not that it was compatible with Sram. I suspect there will in practice be something making it incompatible – don't know what, maybe something Sram will introduce to stop people using Shimano components with their groups!

[AndyK]

Just watched the latest video on A Path Less Pedaled. Shimano are introducing a new 1:1 pull ratio for the new CUES groupsets, so they won’t be backwards compatible with any of their existing groupsets. So it’s time to stock up on rear mechs for your existing 8,9, 10 and 11 speed systems, as you won’t be able to use a CUES rear mech with them.

Interesting Trev. That sounds like they have indadvertantly made themselves SRAM compatible !!! See this quote:

• "..Rather than work to a common standard, Shimano, Campagnolo, and SRAM have all developed their own specifications for their indexed gear systems. SRAM mechanical gear levers employ 1:1 actuation" (from https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/mixing- ... -doesnt-2/)

My Sram GX groupset on my mountain bike has always been very precise and I cant remember ever adjusting it. So maybe the 1:1 ratio is just Shimano copying what works ?

Interesting. I knew Cues was not backwards compatible with existing Shimano systems, but not that it was compatible with Sram. I suspect there will in practice be something making it incompatible – don't know what, maybe something Sram will introduce to stop people using Shimano components with their groups!

Compatibility is not just about the shift ratio, it's about cable pull: the amount of cable the lever pulls for each click on the gear lever. Those two together tell you the sideways movement of the derailleur, which has to equal the sprocket pitch, the distance between each sprocket on the cassette.

[Cable pull at lever] * [shift ratio] = [sprocket spacing]

To be cross-compatible, the sprocket spacing has to come out the same. Making the shift ratio the same does not make Shimano CUES shifters compatible with SRAM unless Shimano also change the cable pull on the shifter to be the same as SRAM. Reading between the lines, I don't think they're doing that.

[Edited because I just realised I said 'pitch' when I meant 'spacing']

[Bmblbzzz]

I think I've read somewhere that the sprocket pitch is the same as current Shimano 11-speed.

[fastpedaller]

I guess the additional weight of a CUES cassette is due to 2 factors....... the huge size of some of the sprockets which may have a light-weight aluminium 'carrier' in existing groupsets, but not in linkglide, and the sprockets are stated as being thicker near their root (my choice of word), suggesting they may have an integral steel spacer ie no additional plastic spacer between sprockets, or a thinner spacer. When all's said and done steel weighs what steel weighs, so if it weighs more that's because there's more of it (not because of a name change )
Although it's stated the sprockets are thicker, they still need to be thin enough to fit an eleven speed chain!

[zenitb]

I guess the additional weight of a CUES cassette is due to 2 factors....... the huge size of some of the sprockets which may have a light-weight aluminium 'carrier' in existing groupsets, but not in linkglide, and the sprockets are stated as being thicker near their root (my choice of word), suggesting they may have an integral steel spacer ie no additional plastic spacer between sprockets, or a thinner spacer. When all's said and done steel weighs what steel weighs, so if it weighs more that's because there's more of it (not because of a name change )
Although it's stated the sprockets are thicker, they still need to be thin enough to fit an eleven speed chain!

The dreaded Hambini (NSFW) has some chat about this. His hand drawn red boxes on this screenshot are showing where the teeth still have to be narrow despite the thick base.

He also thinks the thicker cogs will be cheaper to make.
https://youtu.be/eR_NnwLXGcU

[freiston]

That was an interesting video with some new insight - I found particularly interesting that it seems the chainsets will have square tapered bottom brackets and that the rear wheel bearing will be on the inside of the drive-side flange instead of outer end of the freehub as the current cup and cone Shimano hub is.