Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Carlton green
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Carlton green »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 7:35pm
Carlton green wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 5:59pm
Jdsk wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 11:16am
The Web and subsequent email. They have revolutionised the ease, speed and cost of this.

Jonathan
The web is vast and parts of it exist that we’re unlikely to find by ourselves or come across by accident. I’ve found a lot out from the web - haven’t we all - but sometimes Google is not enough. For a start: does anyone know where I can buy a 14 - 32 five speed freewheel in the UK for sensible money?
£20 on Ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374566683927 ... SwmQRkEuJ4
Ah, how could I have missed that. Thanks. :D

Oh, heliomatic mounting, that’s a real rarity and not at all a standard English type screw on freewheel. :(
There’s another one with a French screw on thread on eBay, very rare but no match to the standard British threaded hub that ‘everyone’ once used.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

It will presumably end up much more than £20 then. I'm not familiar with these old oddities :( though the largest sprocket is visibly unusual.

But...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285175370486
"NEW OLD STOCK VINTAGE ATOM 77 TANDEM 5 SPEED FREEWHEEL,3/32", 14-32 TEETH" buy it now £29.99
Carlton green
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Carlton green »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 8:06pm It will presumably end up much more than £20 then. I'm not familiar with these old oddities :( though the largest sprocket is visibly unusual.

But...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285175370486
"NEW OLD STOCK VINTAGE ATOM 77 TANDEM 5 SPEED FREEWHEEL,3/32", 14-32 TEETH" buy it now £29.99
Yep, a 14 - 32 screw on 5 speed freewheel, but when you read the listing details it has a French size thread … which virtually ‘nobody’ in the UK uses.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
drossall
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Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by drossall »

My guess is that you wouldn't call this sensible money? Not sure I would.
maximus meridius
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by maximus meridius »

Most people want it cheap. Whatever it is. Very few people are actually willing to pay for quality or longevity. And so we see here, where apparently £80 for a freewheel is, it is implied, ludicrously expensive. And a £20 crimper is potentially a waste of money.

The domestic appliance manufacturer Miele guarantee to supply spare parts for at least 15 years after they finish manufacturing any product. Mention Miele to most people and they will go on about how expensive they are.

You want cheap, and reliable, and to always have spares available, decades into the future? Dream on.

My bike has almost entirely new, or nearly new, components. But I don't want to be sitting around in 20 years bleating that the big nasty evil capitalist profit gouging company doesn't make spares any more for something they stopped making decades ago. I'm willing to pay to have spares available. And have done. Let me just get my "spares" spreadsheet up...

5 pairs of direct replacement STIs
1 pair of compatible replacement STIs
2 pairs of more or less compatible replacement STIs
all mostly new, or very good used.
3 replacement bottom brackets (for the correct length), new or very little used.
7 compatible replacement RDs (5 new, 2 lightly used)
4 replacement compatible FDs (two new, two lightly used)
2 pairs of brake levers
2 pairs of downtube shifters.
one complete replacement chainset, including cranks.
one spare chainring.
Several spare chains, I forget how many.

There are a few other things I'll buy spares of in time, but I think I've got most of the critical components which may be hard to source in a few years. I'll keep my eyes open for brake callipers, cassettes, brake pads etc. And I'll also keep my eyes open for components which go out of production, or out of fashion, and buy up spares as they start to disappear.

I've spent the money to make sure I can run this bike forever.

The beauty of a mechanical bike, with no electric components (apart from lights) or hydraulics, is that it is possible to buy up, and lay in store, every component. It costs a bit, but I've got them. That wouldn't really be feasible with a motor car, for instance. There are just too many components that could potentially fail.

Some may think this is bonkers. But look at the list of spares - I can completely rebuild my bike several times over. And it's my money, and at least I won't be moaning that I can't find spares.
Carlton green
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Carlton green »

Interesting comment directly above.

Part of keeping bikes on the road is buying parts in advance of anticipated use and speculatively buying parts for potential use; I am fortunate in having the funds and space to be able to do that, but not everyone is similarly fortunate and they have to rely on what they can purchase when needed. I have a large store of spares * the vast bulk of which will never be used by me - it would be nice if, after my death, my estate passed them on to others - but occasionally I’m still caught out in some way. I have spare parts for things that I no longer use and never expect to use, bits for Sturmey Archer five speeds hubs come to mind, but never say never.

At one time I said that I’d never use a SA AW hub (I thought them limiting and sort of second rate) but fate took a hand in my decision making process so I tried the SA AW and have found them to be surprisingly effective. That was a complete and surprising change of course for me - who can plan for such things - but I now have a stock of spares including a replacement wheel. I’m fortunate in usually being able to afford and generally find parts, but sooner or later we all need a bit of practical help and thoughtful advice …

* Edit. The overwhelming majority of which were either salvaged from bikes beyond useful further repair / life or bought second hand / preloved. Better in my store, awaiting further use at some point, than going to landfill or scrap. I carry that reuse principle forward into daily use too, the tyres that I rode along on this morning were bought as second hand in virtually new condition and likewise the three speed hub that ‘carried’ me along. eBay purchases help my pocket (I’m tight fisted) and the planet - reduce, reuse, recycle.
Last edited by Carlton green on 17 Mar 2023, 3:01pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

The last four or five posts above indicate problems with sustainability, and with the idea of sustaining a bike. One problem is that although we like to say components were compatible between brands etc in the past, that isn't true. Allied to this is the problem of a shrinking supply for shrinking markets, and this is compounded by receding knowledge. Then there's the problem of laying parts which you never use, which is pretty much the opposite of sustainable.

And this is all subject to a "fashionability curve": something new is invented, it works, it becomes popular. It might be the norm for many years or even decades. Then for any one or more of a number of reasons (technological development, changing conditions, simple fashion) it becomes less popular. Its numbers decrease until at some point it might become fashionable again; perhaps at first among hipsters – or whatever name is given to those at the front of the fashion curve in that particular place and time – before becoming a valuable antique.

Where does this leave someone wanting to buy a bike now that will sustain them over their lifetime? Perhaps anyone in such a position should start by asking themselves if they really will want to be riding the same bike over their entire life. People change, often in unforeseeable ways, and our own possessions are also subject to our personal "fashionability curve": we cast things away in favour of something newer (whether a newer version of the same, eg a new bike, or a new area of life – a bike might be replaced by a car and a pair of football boots, say), then later rediscover them or wish we still had them.

If you really do want a bike to last you the rest of your life, or perhaps more realistically say at least a couple of decades, I reckon you have two options. You should either get something old and proven, or something cutting edge. In the first case, which might mean something secondhand, you know it works, you know it's reliable, you know it's durable. But you might run into problems of availability of parts. In the second case, you might have a long lifetime of component availability as your bike slowly descends through the cycle from top notch, leading edge, through mainstream to a hopefully sufficient (because it was a good product so sold in large quantities) supply of post-production-life parts. But you might equally be buying into the cycling equivalent of Betamax, something that works well but fails in the market.

Of course none of this is exclusive to bikes.
jimlews
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by jimlews »

The humble cycle jumble is a very good resource for anyone wishing to keep an older bike viable over a longer service life.
Anyone interested in sustaining a bicycle long term will have their own sweet spot.
For me it is the era when index gearing became good - even though I prefer to use non-index shifting.
So I look for '90s Shimano and late Sun -Tour*mechs (front or rear).
Shimano seven speed cassettes; still available and cheap compared to the currently trendy 10,11,12 speed.
I'm not bothered about index shifting. I use Sun-Tour "Barcons" which are retro friction and when combined with an index compatible rear derailleur gives a change as good as, or better than a fully index ensemble.

*Sun-Tour copied Shimano Deore rear mech geometry in the few months before they died.
rareposter
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by rareposter »

Carlton green wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 11:05am With old stuff in mind where has others found help?
ebay - you can set up automated searches for keywords which will notify you when something is listed.

Facebook, although it can be full of dross, is surprisingly useful for "owner / user groups" and fan pages. Chances are, if you're into something, no matter how niche, there'll be some sort of fan page, buyers/sellers group or interest group on there.

Cycle jumbles are usually worth seeking out as are shop closure sales, especially the older / more niche shops. I used to go to an annual cycle jumble at Manchester Velodrome (this was pre-Covid, not sure if they're back up and running now) and there were always a couple of stalls there of what I can only assume were garage clearouts - piles of old Campag and all manner of weird and wonderful kit. It was very much a lottery; some of what was there were genuine rarities and collectables, a lot was total tat.
drossall
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by drossall »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 10:37amOne problem is that although we like to say components were compatible between brands etc in the past, that isn't true.
Neither is it entirely untrue. Before indexed shifting, you could have levers from one brand, a front derailleur from another, a rear from a third, hubs from a fourth, a chainset from a fifth, a freewheel from yet another, similarly with brakes, and so on. It would all work together just fine. Meaning, of course, that ten years down the line and needing a new component, you had a wide choice of replacements and weren't dependent on any one brand either still to be in business, or to be making spares.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

And you could use any shoe with any pedal! This might even turn out to be a hemlines v cleavage thing – that as one falls, the other rises – so as one area of componentry becomes more proprietary, another becomes more standardised.
cycle tramp
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by cycle tramp »

We've got a local bike charity, 'On your bike' which recycles old bikes and they have storage boxes separated into rear dérailleurs, chainsets, pedals, brakes, chain rings, I call in about every two to three months for a general sort through of bits... they used to put some of the good stuff on line, but in the end couldn't justify the time it spent to get the parts into show room condition to sell.

My transmission system is fairly simple (single chainring, rear derailleur controlled by a friction shifter so I normally find a couple of parts which are of use to me)
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
Carlton green
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Carlton green »

Carlton green wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 11:05am With a focus on finding compatible new and pre-used parts I wonder who members have found is helpful. I’m a great believer in keeping old stuff going but sources of parts, data and general bike knowledge are not always obvious. With old stuff in mind where has others found help?
My thanks for the responses, I try to list the ideas below and have added some of my own too. More ideas would be good.

# The Web and subsequent email. Arguably an obvious one and a bit too general but, as they they say, Google is your friend - if not one that always understands what you want and reliably directs you to it (of course YMMV, I’ve had both poor and great success via Google).

# eBay, loads of bits available there, sometimes at good prices and sometimes not. Caveat Emptor, though stuff is mostly as expected and particularly so from regular traders/companies.

# Buy replacement and consumable parts well ahead of when you might need them, have a store full of bits.

# When or if you scrap a bike then strip it for potentially useful/reusable parts and add them to your store.

# Visit Cycle Jumbles (assuming you have one near) and buy what you need or might need.

# Identify owners and users groups, maybe something on Facebook.

# Visit your local charity bike shop (assuming you have one near) and see what they might have for sale / in their spares boxes.

# Shops that specialise in old/bankrupt stock can be good : https://bankruptbikeparts.co.uk/
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
francovendee
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by francovendee »

I've picked up things like chains, chainrings and 8 speed parts when I've seen an offer with the idea that I will be able to keep my bike in working order. This has been a good strategy and I've always had parts in stock.
I'm now in a bit of a dilemma. I'm 80 this year so how many more parts will I need before I'm to infirm to cycle or die?
Luckily I'm seeing less bargains so I suspect the dilemma will resolve itself.
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tykeboy2003
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by tykeboy2003 »

A really interesting article. I've just started looking at getting another bike - not to replace one of my 2, but to allow me to take one to Spain where I can leave it at my sister's so I can use it when I visit (I'm retired and anticipate spending more time there). As someone with concern for the environment, much of the information in there will almost certainly affect my decision.

The 2 bikes I own are; a steel-frame touring bike (bought new in 2012) and an alloy hybrid with carbon forks, bought used in 2016. Both of these bikes have a 9-speed cassette and I have regularly worn out and replaced chains, cassettes and even chain rings on both bikes (I usually do in excess of 2000 miles a year). One thing in the article that I was already very aware of, is the tendency towards proprietary non-interchangeable parts over the last 30 years which now extends to the width of chains - I find the 9-speed chains have a very poor lifecycle.

Much food for thought.....
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