Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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windysmithy
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Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by windysmithy »

I found this interesting and surprising, in equal measure.

https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2023/ ... again.html
richards
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by richards »

Yes. V interesting. The implication seems to be that my 1070s 531 framed, 8X3 geared bike with Brooks saddle and rim brakes is the ‘best’ bike to have. Which is just as well because it’s my favourite. On a quick skim though, the article seems to be saying that steel wheels are the most sustainable, which is a shame as a) they probably lead to less sustainable ambulances zooming around collecting cyclists whose bikes didn’t stop and b) it’s pretty difficult to buy steel wheels nowadays.

And in answer to the question we don’t have to make such bikes sustainable again. There’s lots of them still around, even at the back of my local North London Waitrose.
axel_knutt
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by axel_knutt »

Now calculate the carbon emissions from producing the food that powers the rider.

https://sites.google.com/site/compendiu ... /bicycling
https://ourworldindata.org/environmenta ... ts-of-food

"Bicycles are entirely or partly powered by food calories. Some people argue that the life cycle energy requirements of bicycles are higher than other modes, when one considers the impact of food require to provide additional calories that are burned during the bicycle use. However, the majority of people in car-centered societies take in more calories than their sedentary lifestyle requires. Increased cycling would lead to lower obesity rates, not to higher calorie intakes."

The belief that a calorie defecit, and the consequential weight loss, are sustainable indefinitely is a mental illness, and a singularly deadly one. It's called anorexia.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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horizon
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by horizon »

windysmithy wrote: 2 Mar 2023, 9:41pm I found this interesting and surprising, in equal measure.

https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2023/ ... again.html
Can we make bicycles sustainable again? No, because they never were. The people who bought a 531 with steel wheels in the 1950s did so because they wanted a quick form of transport, a healthy pursuit or the opportunity to compete. The bikes were produced in a filthy, polluted city (Birmingham) from materials sourced from environmentally-damaging, open-cast mines; the machines that made them were powered by electricity produced from coal from the mines of the north of England. In south Wales the coal and steel industries resulted in pollution, ill-health and, in the case of coal, the Aberfan disaster. And don't let's even start on the painting of them.

I don't think that bicycles have ever really been produced or bought with sustainability in mind. A few people may have looked to them for that reason and policy makers may have seen the local benefits (without looking at the far-away costs) but overall the bicycle either had to benefit the purchaser or it wasn't bought. And indeed the 1950s showed that the former bicycle user was only too happy to trade up to the latest Ford Anglia or Morris Minor - cycle use plummeted as we know.

The bicycle is a human tool: it is the result of a trade-off between the benefits we get from it and the costs that it creates. And that applies to most tools but especially those made from metal. It might be sustainable in the sense of using less fuel to make and use than a car or because its components are recyclable but neither of these factors drove bicycle use or production in the past any more than they do today.

However if one personally would like a sustainable bicycle (i.e. it will last a long time) then I would suggest a standard steel frame (new is fine) with commonly found parts such as a rear derailleur. Looking after it, using it and carefully recycling it would probably help environmental sustainability but there will still be an environmental cost somewhere. My take on it would be that we can help to manage those costs in a way that the earth can tolerate - hopefully.

Really interesting article by the way.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

axel_knutt wrote: 3 Mar 2023, 12:28am Now calculate the carbon emissions from producing the food that powers the rider.

https://sites.google.com/site/compendiu ... /bicycling
https://ourworldindata.org/environmenta ... ts-of-food

"Bicycles are entirely or partly powered by food calories. Some people argue that the life cycle energy requirements of bicycles are higher than other modes, when one considers the impact of food require to provide additional calories that are burned during the bicycle use. However, the majority of people in car-centered societies take in more calories than their sedentary lifestyle requires. Increased cycling would lead to lower obesity rates, not to higher calorie intakes."

The belief that a calorie defecit, and the consequential weight loss, are sustainable indefinitely is a mental illness, and a singularly deadly one. It's called anorexia.
If you're currently obese and sedentary with a stable weight and calorie intake, then start regular moderate exercise and keep the same calorie intake, you will end up at a stable, less obese weight, not become anorexic.

Being less obese burns less calories in everything you do, compensating for the calories burned in exercise.
gbnz
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by gbnz »

richards wrote: 2 Mar 2023, 11:01pm Yes. V interesting. The implication seems to be that my 1070s 531 framed, 8X3 geared
I know 8 geared bicycles with steel wheels were built in another era. But the 10th century :shock:

It's incredible to think that steel framed bicycles and wheels may have been brought across to Britain during the Norman invasion. Were they used on the beaches to defend or attack Britain? I bet they had old cows cut up to form the saddles, plastics not yet having been formed.
francovendee
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by francovendee »

I misunderstood this and looked at it from a personal view only. I came to the conclusion that on a personal level buying a bike and finding 20 years later parts are difficult to find isn't sustainable.
I'm certain I'm in the minority in not having an urge to always have the shiniest new bike out there. I will never believe scrapping bikes because technology has changed is any way good for the planet.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by al_yrpal »

My take on it is that many current bikes are sustainable, and if anything is wrong its the human urge to discard an old bike and buy a shiny new one with percieved better bits and better performance.
Folk with a number of bikes will know what I mean :evil: Same as the urge for a shiny new monster car!

nb...I recently got rid of my new shiny monster car and bought a 13 year old decent car to replace it....so I am on the road to redemption!

We visit the dump shop regularly. The bike part is full of discarded kids BSOs. There is very rarely any decent bikes there. Decent bikes get passed on like my lovely 1971 Mercian.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Nearholmer
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Nearholmer »

Although I understand well the point that the author is making, and applaud him for lifting the veil from the topic, I am a bit sceptical about his contention about bike lifespans. Although some, especially the cheap kids bikes that Al mentions, do have very short lives, I’m not at all sure that aluminium adults bikes do, I see a lot of old ones about, lots changing hands for nominal sums on Gumtree, and lots passing through the local cycle charity after overhaul. What I don’t see these days is bikes in the metal recycling section at the dump …… the guys there filter out any that arrive and I think they go either to the charity or to a dealer who buys them in bulk for refurbishment and sale at the market.

Fortunately, I like steel bikes, so my good bike is a steel one, although I’ve recently migrated from a steel (went to the charity) to an aluminium shopping bike.
Stradageek
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Stradageek »

I up-cycle/rescue old bikes, mainly by using second hand parts from unrescueable machines. Having rescued many hundreds of bikes there are some components that seem to last forever and other that are always junk. So my 'sustainable' bike would have:

Frame: Steel or aluminium - I've seen dead steel frames but not dead aluminium frames, however aluminium frames haven't been around as long, so the jury is out. Carbon breaks!
Wheels: Aluminium, steel rusts and bends
Brakes: Drum or roller, both seem to last forever - I have to buy far too many new brake blocks and/or replace worn out ally rims
Gears: Hub, especially the indestructible SA AW3 and I have a 40yr old single speed chain on my shopping bike
Spokes: Stainless steel
Bearings: Any, as long as they are protected from water ingress, correctly adjusted, well maintained and good quality to start with, which means that cup and cones usually fail faster than sealed roller bearings.
Chain rings/sprockets: Steel, ally just wears so fast!
Cables: Fully enclosed with all open ends pointing 'down'
Handlebar grips: Hard plastic, anything soft goes sticky
Saddle: Brooks leather, plastic saddles break or die from 'scuffed against the wall - or the ground'
Luggage: Caradice canvas
Lights: Hub dynamo
Mudguards: Soft plastic MTB types seem to be the only ones that don't crack eventually
Handlebars: Steel, which can rust and look ugly but doesn't crack

Did I miss anything?
Carlton green
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Carlton green »

windysmithy wrote: 2 Mar 2023, 9:41pm I found this interesting and surprising, in equal measure.

https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2023/ ... again.html
Thank you, a really interesting read. There’s a summary at the end of the article on how to change things for the better and what’s become much less sustainable than it used to be. I first came across low tech magazine some years back and recommend it to others, typically an interesting read on how some things can be and have been done in (imho) relatively better ways.

Was bicycle manufacture ever sustainable? Well relative to what we do today I’d say it was and by some considerable margin, but to understand why someone would have to ready the article in full … and obviously understand it.

TLDR: A steel bike that was locally made and is readily repairable over a long life time is the most sustainable type - what we used to do - but a few alloy components here and there to make it work better isn’t going to make significant (sustainability) difference.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Vorpal
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Vorpal »

The article makes some good points, but it is riddled with misinformation & logical inconsistencies.

For example:
Life cycle analyses, which investigate the resource use of a product from “cradle” to “grave,” only appeared in the 1990s.
is completely untrue. Not only has it been around almost as long as the automated manufacturing process, it has been called life cycle analysis, or something similar since the 1970s. Maybe the author didn't find any records, but I doubt that the companies that did such things would have retained the paper records, nor bothered with scanning something that was no longer vaguely applicable.
Until a few decades ago, component compatibility was a hallmark of bicycle manufacturing. My bicycles are a perfect example of this. Most components – such as wheels, gear set, and brakes – are interchangeable between the different frames, even though every vehicle is from another brand and year of construction.
Anyone who has tried to replace a BB from an older bike knows that the size and thread direction can differ from one brand to another.

On the other hand, with such good information available both on the internet, and from manufacturers who publish compatibility tables, I think it's actually easier, now to find and purchase the correct parts.
The globalization and automation of the bicycle industry make bikes less sustainable. First, they introduce extra emissions for transportation (from raw materials, components, and bicycles) and for producing and operating robots and other machinery.
This is unsubstantiated, and frankly, I am not completely convinced. I'd want to see the numbers. Automation, for example is capable of substantially reducing energy requirements in manufacture. While it is true that transportation contributes to emissions, and the energy source for manufacture is more likely to be carbon intensive in China than Europe, it's not as simple as that. Far more bicycles are purchased and used in China than any other country, do we improve things by adding manufacturing capacity elsewhere? What is the sustainability cost to building, expanding. or repurposing a factory? Determining which is best would require complex analysis (or a PhD thesis).

Manufacturing today is *so* much better than when bicycles were all steel (1970s coal, anyone?) that saying a return to steel makes bicycles sustainable 'again' requires completely ignoring the progress that has been made since. In addition, there is less difference between carbon fibre and steel than one might think, and initiatives to require better longevitiy and recycling of carbon fibre could even see it overtake steel in terms of sustainability.

Please note that I am not suggesting that we shouldn't make improvements. Quite the contrary. As I stated, earlier, this article makes some good points. But in a poor way.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
rareposter
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by rareposter »

Vorpal wrote: 3 Mar 2023, 10:33am The article makes some good points, but it is riddled with misinformation & logical inconsistencies.
<snip>
Please note that I am not suggesting that we shouldn't make improvements. Quite the contrary. As I stated, earlier, this article makes some good points. But in a poor way.
Agreed.
It's a decent enough article in terms of the points he's trying to make but it wouldn't score highly in an exam. Too many suppositions and un-referenced "scientists have found..." type stuff that you'd find in a low-grade newspaper trying to make sense of a very complex system.

There's a lot of rose-tinted spec stuff too about how things were better "back in the day" eg
The main reason why I have opted for old bicycles is that they are much better than new bicycles.
They're really really not.
He seems to be harking back to the days when there were basically a couple of groupsets, a couple of options for wheels and one option for frames, that was your lot.

And his stuff about cargo bikes is outright rubbish.
cyclop
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by cyclop »

They were and still are if the frames are made of bamboo.Serviceable rear mechs as in pivots etc would be nice.
Carlton green
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Carlton green »

Some of the posts above seem critical of the article. I do wonder why the nit-picking. As for things being unsubstantiated there’s a list of 27 reference sources at the end of the article. Of course there’s virtually always room for improvement in any article but to my mind the important thing to do is to appreciate good articles - like this one IMHO - and to be even handed in praise.

Perhaps I’m wrong but to my observation bikes are becoming less easily repaired than they once were, that’s not to say that spare parts were always readily available and common standards always used but rather that the situation is less good than it once was. I also don’t regard bike’s being mass manufactured in China as particularly sustainable; there might be efficiencies now but whether such concentrated manufacture is in the best long term interest of either cycling or society is another matter.

Are bikes better now than they once were or vice versa? I wouldn’t like to say and don’t particularly miss some bikes whose frames that might have been made out of ‘gas pipe’. On the other hand, as is the case with most items, there were some great builders in the past who made particularly good items and much of current manufacture isn’t going to produce items that endure … and so (I believe) it has ever been.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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