Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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Nearholmer
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Nearholmer »

The other statistic that nails this for me is that if the whole of Poland ditched ICE cars and switched to EVs the carbon footprint wouldn't change because most of Polands electricity comes from coal power.
I’m not sure what that nails really, because it’s a statement that begs more questions than it answers. Depending upon multiple parameters, it could be either solid truth, or a pack of lies.

The picture is pretty simple, and has been well understood for some years:

- size for size, the emissions associated with making an EV are significantly greater than for making an ICV;

- the emissions in use depend upon the source of electricity, so the ‘break even’ mileage is lower the less emissive the electricity source is. IIRC (check, don’t quote me), in the UK it’s about 30 000km, and in France 20 000km, in Poland it will be higher even than the UK (we generate 50% of our juice from fossil fuel, they are currently at 80%);

- if a person already owns a “late life” small ICV and expects to run it to life expiry at low annual mileages, it is very unlikely that an emissions-based case could be made to replace it with a new EV.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 10 Mar 2023, 9:12am, edited 2 times in total.
mattheus
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by mattheus »

PH wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 8:08am
Carlton green wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 7:02am
PH wrote: 9 Mar 2023, 10:08pm



I don't know you, so I can only respond to what you write.
To me both are green options
To me neither are and I think anyone who owns a car and frets about the sustainability of bicycles needs to sort their priorities out.
Does it help the environment to tell all car users to get less sustainable bikes?

Surely every little* helps; the fiddling while Rome burns analogy doesn't really fit, as there is nowhere outside our Rome to go to ...

*and apparently a billion[1] people are headed our way, so multiply any savings by a billion!

[1] Suella Braverman, Daily Mail, March '23
Carlton green
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Carlton green »

Stradageek wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 8:47am PS wrt the original post, I have just manufactured another machine (a 69er) totally from spare parts salvaged from dead bikes :D
Excellent, let’s hope that we (cyclists in general) can somehow manage to do similar in years to come. As a broad generalisation I tend to think that the greenest way forward is reuse of existing items.

I appreciate that the original article might have imperfections but, on the other hand and IMHO, the author deserves respect for the time, trouble, expense and effort that he takes to promote simpler and greener ways of doing things. Thoughtful low tech produces some very effective and useful stuff, indeed the best products have unnecessary parts and complexity designed out of them.
Last edited by Carlton green on 10 Mar 2023, 9:33am, edited 2 times in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by al_yrpal »

We were in a bar/pub for a light lunch yesterday. All the chandeliers were made from bicycle chainwheels etc.
My Mrs is an expert at upcycling stuff. She has just upcycled some Chinese screens using nice wallpaper from Dunelm.

I must let her have a go at my spares box! :lol:

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
mattheus
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by mattheus »

Carlton green wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 9:23am
Stradageek wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 8:47am PS wrt the original post, I have just manufactured another machine (a 69er) totally from spare parts salvaged from dead bikes :D
Excellent, let’s hope that we (cyclists in general) can somehow manage to do similar in years to come. As a broad generalisation I tend to think that the greenest way forward is reuse of existing items.

I appreciate that the original article might have imperfections but, on the other hand and IMHO, the author deserves respect for the time, trouble, expense and effort that he takes to promote simpler and greener ways of doing things - thoughtful low tech produces some very effective and useful stuff indeed the best produces have unnecessary complexity designed out of them.
+1
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Biospace wrote: 9 Mar 2023, 6:40pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 9 Mar 2023, 4:57pm Thing is... Teslas are some of the more efficient vehicles out there.
Because in electric world you an have both extreme efficiency and extreme power in the same power train - usually not at the same time, but the drive train which is built to be efficient can also sustain high peak loads.
But there is a bigger picture, which those who are blinded by the efficiencies you mention fail to acknowledge. Pollution from tyres alone is one very large blot on the Tesla's claim to be good for the planet. Elsewhere, you tried to compare an EVs efficiency with that of an ICEv while failing to mention the inefficiencies in the UK electricity grid, with almost all marginal electricity demand powered by burning gas.

Well - tyre pollution does become "significant" when you basically eliminate the main source of pollution, it's no worse on an EV than an ICE.
On the other hand even accounting for inefficiencies we'd be better off burning petrol in a power station and using that to power an EV than putting the petrol in an ICE...
And of course the grid is not entirely fossil fuel based, it's more than a third renewables.
I've said it before and will repeat until it sinks in, a small petrol engined car which covers a low annual mileage is less harmful than replacing it with a new Tesla, in the UK and many other nations which use fossil fuel to create electricity. You need to drive tens of thousands of miles in an EV before it becomes marginally less polluting (the larger the battery, the further it takes) than ICEv, all the while wearing more rapidly through tyres. Volvo themselves have stated the production of a typical BEV creates 70% more GHG.
And I've posted on here before - it takes just 30k miles for an ICE vehicle to emit more GHG than it takes to both produce an EV and run it for 30k miles. That's a little over three years for a typical car in the UK.
Of course your "small engined" petrol car won't be replaced with a tesla, it would be more likely to be replaced with an eUp or similar - and it wouldn't be scrapped, it would be passed to a new owner.. down to the worst performing car on the road... so that 30k is very generous towards the ICE vehicle.

Where do you get the idea that EVs wear through tyres substantially faster than ICE vehicles? It's simply not the case - and you omit of course brake wear, which is worse* on an ICE.
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-ca ... etrol-and/
https://l2sfbc.com/do-evs-wear-their-ty ... -vehicles/

* Both are in reality tiny differences
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Nearholmer wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 9:07am - if a person already owns a “late life” small ICV and expects to run it to life expiry at low annual mileages, it is very unlikely that an emissions-based case could be made to replace it with a new EV.
Depends whether you look only as an individual, or if you look at the country's fleet of vehicles.
You'd not scrap that vehicle, you'd scrap an older, less well maintained, less efficient vehicle.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Carlton green wrote: 9 Mar 2023, 9:35pm Do cars need to be lighter and slower? Probably and as the 2CV and Renault 4 were about 30 HP I’d say that 40 HP plus a good gearbox should be enough to get a similar sized modern car about well enough.
Absolutely they should be lighter and slower... but they will remain heavier than they were in the days when "safety" was having a lapbelt.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Carlton green
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Carlton green »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 12:23pm
Carlton green wrote: 9 Mar 2023, 9:35pm Do cars need to be lighter and slower? Probably and as the 2CV and Renault 4 were about 30 HP I’d say that 40 HP plus a good gearbox should be enough to get a similar sized modern car about well enough.
Absolutely they should be lighter and slower... but they will remain heavier than they were in the days when "safety" was having a lapbelt.
True enough and vehicle safety construction is important. From personal experience I know that what stands between me and the reckless actions of others are shouldn’t be needed safety features (but sadly they have been needed).

On the other hand small cars like the Up (which is no longer available in electric form) and the Smart Car are big enough to get folk around, quite good on fuel, have relevant safety features and are not particularly heavy. I think it perfectly possible to manufacture a small car with appropriate safety features and if large cars (4 x 4 types) were taken off of the road then the rest of us would be safer (due to the removal of the relative size and weight hazard that they present). If the EU were really serious about limiting environmental impact then limiting vehicle size and power would be by far the better way to go.

How much power do we really need? Well, I answered that earlier (above) and think it still valid.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
mattheus
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by mattheus »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 12:23pm
Carlton green wrote: 9 Mar 2023, 9:35pm Do cars need to be lighter and slower? Probably and as the 2CV and Renault 4 were about 30 HP I’d say that 40 HP plus a good gearbox should be enough to get a similar sized modern car about well enough.
Absolutely they should be lighter and slower... but they will remain heavier than they were in the days when "safety" was having a lapbelt.
Surely all the extra they need is a polystyrene hat??
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Yes removing the obscene "light truck" would help.
Any of the vehicles of that size could happily do sterling work with a 10-15kWh battery pack - it's not going to be a motorway cruiser though.

Those safety kilograms are very necessary - MrsBob and MiniBob were sideswiped by a lorry that just decided to take the left lane into a roundabout and turn right without ever indicating, I'll happily lug around some extra weight to ensure a good outcome in those rare events.
Carlton green wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 2:28pm How much power do we really need? Well, I answered that earlier (above) and think it still valid.
Not all that much, and even less in a lighter vehicle.
But most cars seem to target somewhere about 7-8 seconds to 60 - I don't really mind how much power is available from 30-70, accelerate as hard as you like there, but at low speeds you're often in town and don't need to do a racing start - over 70 simply isn't needed.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Biospace
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Biospace »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 12:23pm Absolutely they should be lighter and slower... but they will remain heavier than they were in the days when "safety" was having a lapbelt.
Not true, there were once plenty of heavy cars which were lethal in an accident. Many cars today which are extremely safe (5 star NCAP rating) weigh barely more than 1 tonne. The engineering decides in large part how safe a car is in an impact.

[XAP]Bob wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 12:18pm
Where do you get the idea that EVs wear through tyres substantially faster than ICE vehicles? It's simply not the case - and you omit of course brake wear, which is worse* on an ICE.
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-ca ... etrol-and/
https://l2sfbc.com/do-evs-wear-their-ty ... -vehicles/

* Both are in reality tiny differences
Regen braking does save some brake pad wear, although where the largest accumulations of brake dust are measured - at junctions - an EV needs to use its friction brakes to stop as the motor cannot brake much at very low speeds. The heavier the battery, the greater the amount of electrical braking. Were we using lighter cars, brake power/use would be a fraction of what it is.

The discussion surrounding the effects of vehicle mass on tyre wear is on this forum here, with the same RAC page offered as 'evidence'. In trying to make the case for EVs it exemplifies false claims to help bolster the feeling that negative comments are likely false. The facts are buried deep in the article, that EVs (Nissan Leafs, among the least powerful) wore out (front) tyres by 20,000 miles, between 5,000 to 10,000 miles sooner than for diesel equivalents.

The second link at least has the honesty to admit within the first few words that "The following three facts are true:
1. The greater weight of the EV vs ICE equivalent means greater tyre wear
2. Potential use of quick EV acceleration means increased tyre wear
"

Vehicle tyres are a huge source of pollution and contribute a lot to the carbon footprint of motoring. The energy (fossil fuel) required to make them is very high, in use their particulate matter poisins our lungs and bloodstream, water courses and seas and all the food in them, then they're problematic and polluting to 'recycle'.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Biospace wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 3:18pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 12:18pm
Where do you get the idea that EVs wear through tyres substantially faster than ICE vehicles? It's simply not the case - and you omit of course brake wear, which is worse* on an ICE.
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-ca ... etrol-and/
https://l2sfbc.com/do-evs-wear-their-ty ... -vehicles/

* Both are in reality tiny differences
Regen braking does save some brake pad wear, although where the largest accumulations of brake dust are measured - at junctions - an EV needs to use its friction brakes to stop as the motor cannot brake much at very low speeds. The heavier the battery, the greater the amount of electrical braking. Were we using lighter cars, brake power/use would be a fraction of what it is.
Have you never driven an EV? One pedal driving is relatively common, with regen all the way to zero - then the brake pads are squeezed to hold you still. On mine the regen "only" takes me down to 5mph... but that's fine, that's literally 3% of the energy as 30mph or 5% of 20mph.

The discussion surrounding the effects of vehicle mass on tyre wear is on this forum here, with the same RAC page offered as 'evidence'. In trying to make the case for EVs it exemplifies false claims to help bolster the feeling that negative comments are likely false. The facts are buried deep in the article, that EVs (Nissan Leafs, among the least powerful) wore out (front) tyres by 20,000 miles, between 5,000 to 10,000 miles sooner than for diesel equivalents.
Yes - because they were driven by taxi drivers who where hammering the FWD system... And a leaf has similar torque to a golf gti, they're not "least powerful" under any metric which makes any sense, basically every car on the road is capable of breaking traction.
If you look at the tyres which are only affected by the weight of the vehicle, not the leaden foot of a taxi driver - oh they're last the same.

Also empirically "as Dundee has already shown, air quality is demonstrably better in cities that have high uptake of electric vehicles, due to a substantial net reduction in particulate matter from exhausts, tyres and brakes."

The second link at least has the honesty to admit within the first few words that "The following three facts are true:
1. The greater weight of the EV vs ICE equivalent means greater tyre wear
2. Potential use of quick EV acceleration means increased tyre wear
"

Vehicle tyres are a huge source of pollution and contribute a lot to the carbon footprint of motoring. The energy (fossil fuel) required to make them is very high, in use their particulate matter poisins our lungs and bloodstream, water courses and seas and all the food in them, then they're problematic and polluting to 'recycle'.
They contribute the square root of sod all to the carbon footprint, and they don't wear out substantially faster... Mine are at 25 thousand miles and counting, which is absolutely not "sub par" for a set of tyres on a FWD vehicle. No idea what the wear rate of a clutch is like, but again, I assume the numbers are small because the amount of material is pretty small. You don't "refill" your clutch with tens of kilos of material every few hundred miles.

https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/shop ... s-retreads
31kg CO2 per tyre that's 120kg overall - about the same as 50 litres of petrol (2.4kg/litre) or 450 miles worth - tyres last a little longer than that. There is a potential additional 49kg in terms of carbon content in the tyre itself, but that isn't released (and would only account for another thousand miles anyway).

As ever people vastly underestimate just how much waste product there is from burning stuff, because once it's up the chimney or out of the exhaust pipe it's "not their problem".

Of course you could have read the article's conclusion, and then looked at the numbers in light of that:
Real EV fleets are already seeing brake lifespans increased fourfold versus the diesel vehicles they have replaced, and tyre wear that is broadly on par with petrol and diesel cars (unless, as like with any vehicle, the drivers get a bit throttle happy!).
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Manc33
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Manc33 »

"the bicycle is becoming increasingly damaging to the environment"

What will they come up with next. :?

It's always assumed that if you're a cyclist you're "doing your bit for the environment" but I reckon that applies to a tiny minority of cyclists. How many cyclists do you know that only took up cycling or, they only carry on doing it, because they think it's helping the environment?

For a start, I drive a car and use a bicycle. Then there's all the people that are trying to get fitter, that's it, they are just trying to get fitter and want to see some scenery while they are at it. Then there's the more serious crowd that are amateur or pro racers... are they doing it to help the environment? Of course not.

So who is cycling just because it helps the environment? Anyone? It's just another stupid political football that's being kicked around. It's not everyday people that can help save the environment, it's big companies dumping millions of tons of toxic junk into rivers and oceans, it's big companies cutting down trees. They can help, by packing it in. Finding other ways of doing whatever they do, without polluting and taking away so many trees.

Anyone that thinks they are helping to save the planet by cycling, I don't even know what to say.

My bike is made up from... a frame that was used and I know (with proof) did thousands and thousands of miles before I bought it used. Almost every part on it, was also bought used. Have I done my bit? I literally can't care. :lol: What I do know is, I have got very good equipment on my bike, a really good frame and it didn't cost me anything like what a new bike would have cost - that doesn't even exist anyway. If I did buy a new bike it would just become "triggers broom" where I'd be selling off parts and replacing them, probably to the point that almost nothing is left of the original bike.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
cycle tramp
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Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by cycle tramp »

Manc33 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 4:28am It's always assumed that if you're a cyclist you're "doing your bit for the environment" but I reckon that applies to a tiny minority of cyclists. How many cyclists do you know that only took up cycling or, they only carry on doing it, because they think it's helping the environment?

So who is cycling just because it helps the environment? Anyone? It's just another stupid political football that's being kicked around. It's not everyday people that can help save the environment, it's big companies dumping millions of tons of toxic junk into rivers and oceans, it's big companies cutting down trees. They can help, by packing it in. Finding other ways of doing whatever they do, without polluting and taking away so many trees.

Anyone that thinks they are helping to save the planet by cycling, I don't even know what to say.
Ah, that would be myself. I took up cycling way back in the 1990's after my brother was involved in the Twyford Down protests. Before then (and despite not having a driving licence for a car until mid 2006 (although at the time I held a motorcycle license) I actually ran a local car club which organised meetings and club runs and all the rest of it...
..while there's much conversion about things like co2 and mirco plastics, for me the situation was much more simple. Every time I used a car, it was an arguement to build more or wider roads - that my vehicle movements would appear on the traffic counters' figures as a car, and be used as a reason for yet another road, and more displacement of wildlife and the destruction of trees and hedges and all the green things, which I love.
I'd much rather have countryside than roads. So the car club was handed over to someone else, and I pulled my out my mountain bike from the garage and used that for all my local journeys.


Yes there are big companies clear cutting forests, and poisoning the land and sea and air. However they're not doing it for fun. They're doing it because of consumer choice - that is to say the companies behave this way because we buy products from them, and by doing so support their behaviour.

The first couple of rides were horrible. But I got fitter, I changed things like the tyres and saddle and then sorted out my riding position. And as I got fitter I enjoyed it more and riding the bike became more fun than driving or even motorcycling. I now cycle because it is fun to do so, the fact it is not harming the planet in the way my car does is a good thing, and the fact that I am riding it to the shops and places I need to be is a good thing as by doing some it becomes an argument to provide better cycling facilities :-)

We as consumers and users of products have an incredible amount of power. However to wield it we need to do so incisively and to be prepared to maintain that pressure. Everyday people can help the environment, and it takes a small percentage to act in a way to do so to begin to create change. Look at Greta, she is an everyday person who has simply maintained pressure. If 2-3% of the population maintained the same pressure we could see some amazing differences. Not all of us have the time or energy to do that, but if we all did something everyday or week we can change the way companies operate.

There are two quotes come to mind
'be the change you want to see in the universe'

'It is thought that a tremendous power is needed to thwart the designs of evil. That is not what I have found. I have found that it is the everyday acts of love and kindness which holds the darkness at bay'
Last edited by cycle tramp on 11 Mar 2023, 8:24am, edited 2 times in total.
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