Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

[maximus meridius]

A really interesting article. I've just started looking at getting another bike - not to replace one of my 2, but to allow me to take one to Spain where I can leave it at my sister's so I can use it when I visit (I'm retired and anticipate spending more time there). As someone with concern for the environment, much of the information in there will almost certainly affect my decision.

How do you intend to travel to Spain?

From Yorkshire to Barcelona is approx 1000 miles/1600 km. Assuming your username means you're in Yorkshire. And Barcelona is northern Spain. Seville is a lot further.

For the sake of argument let's ignore the probably more carbon intensive links at each end of the journey. So using "national rail" as the main transport mechanism, your journey will generate 128kg of CO2 - 40gm per km, twice (there and back).

https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint

"National rail" is about the lowest carbon form of long distance transport.

So your journey will generate about three and half times the emissions of the lifetime emissions of a steel framed bike. And is roughly the same amount as a aluminium frame.

The problem isn't the CO2 to do with the bike. The problem is the journey itself. Your "concern for the environment" is admirable. But don't fool yourself that choosing a "low carbon" bike to leave in Spain will make any substantial difference. And of course if you fly there, well....

And no, every little doesn't help. David MacKay put paid to that nonsense years ago. Every BIG helps.

https://www.withouthotair.com/c19/page_114.shtml

[cycle tramp]

And no, every little doesn't help. David MacKay put paid to that nonsense years ago. Every BIG helps.
https://www.withouthotair.com/c19/page_114.shtml

Well yes, every little does help. Having read the article, from the link, David Mackay writes that by concentrating on only the little things, we may loose sight of the larger actions that can be taken. And I understand that.
In his statement he talks about the wasted energy of keeping a mobile phone charger plugged into the mains, when it's not being charged, and the effect of saving co2 by not doing that. He then advises that even if we stopped doing that it may not make a difference. However here's where his reason falls apart, every tonne of co2 produced has to be either captured or converted into oxygen by plants no matter how it is produced. Therefore it does make sense for all of us to do as many little and big things as possible. Everything we do does help.

[maximus meridius]

And no, every little doesn't help. David MacKay put paid to that nonsense years ago. Every BIG helps.
https://www.withouthotair.com/c19/page_114.shtml

Well yes, every little does help. Having read the article, from the link, David Mackay writes that by concentrating on only the little things, we may loose sight of the larger actions that can be taken. And I understand that.
However that's not to say we shouldn't be doing the little things. Everything we do does help.

The planet is doomed. My children will die in misery. Because even people who say they care don't understand, even when they claim to, and completely miss the point. As you have just demonstrated so very very well.

[cycle tramp]

And no, every little doesn't help. David MacKay put paid to that nonsense years ago. Every BIG helps.
https://www.withouthotair.com/c19/page_114.shtml

Well yes, every little does help. Having read the article, from the link, David Mackay writes that by concentrating on only the little things, we may loose sight of the larger actions that can be taken. And I understand that.
However that's not to say we shouldn't be doing the little things. Everything we do does help.

The planet is doomed. My children will die in misery. Because even people who say they care don't understand, even when they claim to, and completely miss the point. As you have just demonstrated so very very well.

Gosh, I hope not on both accounts. I hope your children will have bright futures ahead of them. I think at this point telling me that I have missed the point, without explaining why, is interesting as is your belief that your children will have a miserable existence. You're not one of these troll people by any chance?

[maximus meridius]

Well yes, every little does help. Having read the article, from the link, David Mackay writes that by concentrating on only the little things, we may loose sight of the larger actions that can be taken. And I understand that.
However that's not to say we shouldn't be doing the little things. Everything we do does help.

The planet is doomed. My children will die in misery. Because even people who say they care don't understand, even when they claim to, and completely miss the point. As you have just demonstrated so very very well.

Gosh, I hope not on both accounts. I hope your children will have bright futures ahead of them. I think at this point telling me that I have missed the point, without explaining why, is interesting as is your belief that your children will have a miserable existence. You're not one of these troll people by any chance?

Well, I suppose I could type out David MacKay's article again. But I won't bother, because it's there for you to read. If somebody doesn't get it, they don't get it. It's clear to me, though apparently not to you. There's nothing more I can do to help you understand I'm afraid. You can lead a horse to water, and all that.

Numbers.

Numbers.

Numbers.

There, is that a bit clearer?

Now, read a lot more of David MacKay's book, or even all of it. It's long, detailed and full of numbers. It's also free:

https://www.withouthotair.com/

Then go here:

https://secure.carbonfootprint.com/users/default.aspx set up an account and find out what matters and what doesn't.

[cycle tramp]

- my take on the whole cut co2 emissions goes something like this - ages ago I managed a couple of budgets for an organisation, and had to keep keep an eye on spending..
..so we cut costs where ever we could on the provision that the costs we tried to cut didn't harm the quality of service..
Everything was looked at. We didn't say 'we'll only look at the larger costs - we looked at the smaller costs as well as every cut contributed towards saving money for the company. Strangely in the end, the number of smaller costs savings totalled higher than the larger cost savings..

[cycle tramp]

Well, I suppose I could type out David MacKay's article again. But I won't bother, because it's there for you to read. If somebody doesn't get it, they don't get it. It's clear to me, though apparently not to you. There's nothing more I can do to help you understand I'm afraid. You can lead a horse to water, and all that.

Numbers.

Numbers.

Numbers.

There, is that a bit clearer?

Now, read a lot more of David MacKay's book, or even all of it. It's long, detailed and full of numbers. It's also free:

https://www.withouthotair.com/

Then go here:

https://secure.carbonfootprint.com/users/default.aspx set up an account and find out what matters and what doesn't.

Thank you for the links. Having read the article once, I shall not bother you to write it again. What I would say is that whilst a mobile charger, left in a power socket (but not charging a phone) may only use 1% of the households electricity, it is still nevertheless still energy that has to be generated and paid for. It is always easier to save energy than to create it, so why would you not unplug it?

The difference is expectation- do I think that by unplugging my mobile phone charger I would save the world - no, I would very much doubt it. Do I see unplugging my phone charger as part of my wider actions of tree planting, investing in renewable electricity, re-using things where I can, and growing my own food. Yes of course. Whilst these other actions may not save the world by themselves - they are nevertheless fun to do, so I shall continue to do them.

[maximus meridius]

- my take on the whole cut co2 emissions goes something like this - ages ago I managed a couple of budgets for an organisation, and had to keep keep an eye on spending..
..so we cut costs where ever we could on the provision that the costs we tried to cut didn't harm the quality of service..
Everything was looked at. We didn't say 'we'll only look at the larger costs - we looked at the smaller costs as well as every cut contributed towards saving money for the company. Strangely in the end, the number of smaller costs savings totalled higher than the larger cost savings..

Well done. Point proven.

Or maybe you could read. Perhaps my actual numbers, rather than some vague reference to something you once did that was nothing to do with CO2 or CH4 emissions.

Or to prove that you yourself aren't a troll, do what I suggest. That would demonstrate that you care, and aren't here just to argue and defend your "position". It would show an open mind and a willingness to learn things. What did I suggest? Setting up an account at carbonfootprint and examining your own carbon outputs. Or any one of the many carbon footprint calculators. They aren't perfect, and they all differ, especially in certain areas (like food). But they're a good start.

[maximus meridius]

Thank you for the links. Having read the article once, I shall not bother you to write it again. What I would say is that whilst a mobile charger, left in a power socket (but not charging a phone) may only use 1% of the households electricity, it is still nevertheless still energy that has to be generated and paid for. It is always easier to save energy than to create it, so why would you not unplug it?

Actually, you're out by a factor of four. According to the article you said you read, a mobile phone charger left plugged in uses one quarter of one percent of a households electricity. It might be even less than that. David MacKay's article is a bit old now. And as many modern phones charge from USB, is there a transformer using power, if the phone's not connected to the USB outlet? But I'm really not going to bother looking at the detail, when the lights in the kitchen are 112 watts.

[Carlton green]

A really interesting article. I've just started looking at getting another bike - not to replace one of my 2, but to allow me to take one to Spain where I can leave it at my sister's so I can use it when I visit (I'm retired and anticipate spending more time there). As someone with concern for the environment, much of the information in there will almost certainly affect my decision.

The 2 bikes I own are; a steel-frame touring bike (bought new in 2012) and an alloy hybrid with carbon forks, bought used in 2016. Both of these bikes have a 9-speed cassette and I have regularly worn out and replaced chains, cassettes and even chain rings on both bikes (I usually do in excess of 2000 miles a year). One thing in the article that I was already very aware of, is the tendency towards proprietary non-interchangeable parts over the last 30 years which now extends to the width of chains - I find the 9-speed chains have a very poor lifecycle.

Much food for thought.....

“Much food for thought ….”. Yes, I’d have thought so and in various ways. It wasn’t part of your response (good) but there are, of course, successive bigger pictures of sustainability beyond the bike. However such bigger pictures detract from the focus and original intent of this thread; to my mind such distractions are better discussed elsewhere. This thread was and should be about keeping bikes going and as such comments like “I find the 9-speed chains have a very poor lifecycle” are of actual value to those that want their bike to have a long life.

[mattheus]

- my take on the whole cut co2 emissions goes something like this - ages ago I managed a couple of budgets for an organisation, and had to keep keep an eye on spending..
..so we cut costs where ever we could on the provision that the costs we tried to cut didn't harm the quality of service..
Everything was looked at. We didn't say 'we'll only look at the larger costs - we looked at the smaller costs as well as every cut contributed towards saving money for the company. Strangely in the end, the number of smaller costs savings totalled higher than the larger cost savings..

Well quite!
Or to put it another way; "Want to keep your leccy bill down? Turn the lights off when you go out. And also look for other savings. Simples!"

Any other approach doesn't make sense (no matter how many youTube links are cited .... )

[tykeboy2003]

A really interesting article. I've just started looking at getting another bike - not to replace one of my 2, but to allow me to take one to Spain where I can leave it at my sister's so I can use it when I visit (I'm retired and anticipate spending more time there). As someone with concern for the environment, much of the information in there will almost certainly affect my decision.

How do you intend to travel to Spain?

From Yorkshire to Barcelona is approx 1000 miles/1600 km. Assuming your username means you're in Yorkshire. And Barcelona is northern Spain. Seville is a lot further.

For the sake of argument let's ignore the probably more carbon intensive links at each end of the journey. So using "national rail" as the main transport mechanism, your journey will generate 128kg of CO2 - 40gm per km, twice (there and back).

https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint

"National rail" is about the lowest carbon form of long distance transport.

So your journey will generate about three and half times the emissions of the lifetime emissions of a steel framed bike. And is roughly the same amount as a aluminium frame.

The problem isn't the CO2 to do with the bike. The problem is the journey itself. Your "concern for the environment" is admirable. But don't fool yourself that choosing a "low carbon" bike to leave in Spain will make any substantial difference. And of course if you fly there, well....

And no, every little doesn't help. David MacKay put paid to that nonsense years ago. Every BIG helps.

https://www.withouthotair.com/c19/page_114.shtml

We have a small motorhome and would probably be doing quite a bit of touring. Not the most environmentally friendly way as compared with a rail journey as you point out, but better than flying.

I'm from Yorkshire but live 15 miles south of Derby, but the distances aren't much different.

My impact on the environment is generally quite low. Being retired I have no commute and tend to shop and socialise locally. I rarely use the car and get about mostly by bike - unless the journey is too far or I need to carry heavy objects. I feel I'm doing my bit.

I'm not stupid (I have a degree in Chemistry and was a senior software developer for over 30 years), I know that in the grand scheme of things, the carbon footprint of bikes in terms of their production and lifecycle are miniscule in comparison with motoring or any other form of transport. This is something that makes me proud of my cycling.

I think the main thrust of my post was to decry the trends in bicycle production which renders modern bikes unusable and unrepairable in a much shorter timeframe than the old steel framed bikes of 40 years ago.

[[XAP]Bob]

In his statement he talks about the wasted energy of keeping a mobile phone charger plugged into the mains, when it's not being charged, and the effect of saving co2 by not doing that.

I rather hope he comes up with zero, within the margins of error.
Mobile phone chargers do not, in working order, get warm - which is the only way they could possibly dissipate such wasted energy


Ok, yes - he does.

[st599_uk]

In his statement he talks about the wasted energy of keeping a mobile phone charger plugged into the mains, when it's not being charged, and the effect of saving co2 by not doing that.

I rather hope he comes up with zero, within the margins of error.
Mobile phone chargers do not, in working order, get warm - which is the only way they could possibly dissipate such wasted energy


Ok, yes - he does.

Transformers draw a current under no load to keep the core magnetised.

https://www.brainkart.com/article/No-lo ... mer_12297/

[[XAP]Bob]

In his statement he talks about the wasted energy of keeping a mobile phone charger plugged into the mains, when it's not being charged, and the effect of saving co2 by not doing that.

I rather hope he comes up with zero, within the margins of error.
Mobile phone chargers do not, in working order, get warm - which is the only way they could possibly dissipate such wasted energy


Ok, yes - he does.

Transformers draw a current under no load to keep the core magnetised.

https://www.brainkart.com/article/No-lo ... mer_12297/

They do - although that current has a very low power factor, so the *energy* loss is negligible for all purposes other than something that's meant to last years on a single coin cell (there nano amps count) where you wouldn't be running a transformer anyway.
Actually - do modern phone chargers run transformers or are they fully solid state now? I've got some that are *very* thin.

The evidence for the low power usage is very simple, if they were consuming power they would be hot, I've never even had one warm.