Open Street Map - editing & learning

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
st599_uk
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by st599_uk »

If you don't want to go in to full editing mode, there's an app called StreetComplete which has questions about features that feed in to OSM.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by al_yrpal »

Well, I never added things just corrected out of date things. Perhaps adding is more difficult?

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simonineaston
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by simonineaston »

From my brief dabbling over the past couple of days, trying to edit the Concorde Way, I don't think it's that difficult to add new features. What is difficult is getting the taxonomy right - that is, choosing the appropriate attributes to add to the new feature such that the feature then fits correctly in the Big Scheme of Things and appears appropriately in the many, many apps that use the mapping data for whatever the individual author has in mind. There's a right way of adding attributes, and lots of ways that potential editors will think are OK but can in fact be misleading.
In some ways, the old-fashioned way of getting all the elements' attributes to show by way of black ink lines and colouring them in, ie as per Ordnance Survey, is a jolly sight more obvious, although just as skillful. A lot of the digital attributes are hidden...
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freiston
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by freiston »

Well I've just had my first go at editing - I ticked the box to have my edits reviewed by someone with experience.

Now follows a description of my mapping issues that are not about how to edit Open Street Maps (OSM) but about whether to edit . . .

There's a lane I regularly ride on with a left turn at the end. On maps and Google Maps, there appears to be a track that will cut the corner but under closer inspection, the track does not pass through a property in the middle. At the southern end of the track, where it joins the lane, there is also a footpath shown on Ordnance Survey (OS) maps (which leaves the track to go over a field). On the ground at this junction, there is a locked gate with no entry and bio-security signs (I think the site is a chicken farm), there is no pedestrian access and no footpath signposted. The local council online definitive mapping is confusing. On the main link, the footpath is marked and numbered (M286) but there is a disclaimer to the map saying it is based on 1998 definitive map but that it is not the definitive map and it does not have any legal status. Another council link shows an OS map complete with OS footpaths etc. but with an overlay of Rights of Way in blue dashed lines (if you follow this link, it takes some time for the map to load then even longer for the overlay to load). The footpath in question is marked thus (see screenshot below) but there are other footpaths that are signposted and used in reality, marked on OS maps but are not marked with the blue dashed line on the online map.
Screenshot from 2023-03-11 13-30-07.png

Anyhow, my issue was that route-planning software employing OSM usually plots my route along the track to cut the corner and so I wanted to edit this in OSM. I have attempted to change the track to private access and put a node at the southern end of the track tagged "barrier=gate". Hopefully I have done it correctly and presumably my changes won't take effect unless they are accepted on review.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

Looks good to me.

OSM changes aren't subject to review as a matter of course - you can tick the "Review requested" box but that just means someone might come and look at it later. Or they might not!

Routing along a bare highway=track in the UK where no other access information has been added is a failing that certain route-planners suffer from. ;)
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freiston
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by freiston »

Cheers :-)
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
maximus meridius
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by maximus meridius »

Nearholmer wrote: 6 Mar 2023, 3:17pm
True. But the flip-side is that all the knowledge is contributed by IT wunder-kidz. If your village doesn't have one that cycles regularly, your local mapping is doomed to be hopeless.
Yes, on balance I’d definitely like to see it doable by mere mortals.
It is editable by "mere mortals". I've done some edits. It was easy, once I'd spent some time learning how.

"IT wunder-kidz" is a silly myth. I sometimes have to teach young people how to use software. Young people who may be a third or a quarter of my age. The notion that young people are somehow naturally IT literate is utter nonsense. They are good at what they know how to use, Instagram and social media stuff etc. And sometimes a small number (usually one) of large specialist applications. Sit them down in front of a new application and they are utterly and completely lost. Until (or usually unless) they take the time to learn that application. Which is exactly what I do with a new software application. I sit down, and learn how to use it. And no, my qualifications are not in IT, but I use subject specific applications in my work.

If you want to learn how to use an item of technology, such as a software application, just sit down and damn well learn it. I am the oldest member of my immediate colleagues, who frequently come to me asking for help. I am sick to death of "older" people perpetuating this myth that somehow young people are good at IT and older people aren't. Learn.
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freiston
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by freiston »

That's a different take on previous posts than I had. I didn't take "IT wunder-kidz" to mean youngsters generally being tech savvy (as opposed to us older generations) but a rare and talented minority (probably younger rather than older) with a particular interest and talent in IT/computing/coding generally and digital mapping specifically. Similarly, I didn't take "us mere mortals" to mean anyone not young enough to have gone through school without modern computers or smart phones, but just those of us not so gifted.

Saying that, I do appreciate how some people of a certain vintage have stereotypical attitudes regarding their unfamiliarity with computing/IT and how they think all youngsters brought up with it are geniuses just because they use the "other world" social media apps on those confusing smart phone devices. A few decades ago, I suppose the equivalence would have been grandparents' in awe of their grandchildren's ability to set up the VCR to record every episode of Coronation Street.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
maximus meridius
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by maximus meridius »

freiston wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 10:24pm That's a different take on previous posts than I had. I didn't take "IT wunder-kidz" to mean youngsters generally being tech savvy (as opposed to us older generations) but a rare and talented minority (probably younger rather than older) with a particular interest and talent in IT/computing/coding generally and digital mapping specifically. Similarly, I didn't take "us mere mortals" to mean anyone not young enough to have gone through school without modern computers or smart phones, but just those of us not so gifted.

Saying that, I do appreciate how some people of a certain vintage have stereotypical attitudes regarding their unfamiliarity with computing/IT and how they think all youngsters brought up with it are geniuses just because they use the "other world" social media apps on those confusing smart phone devices. A few decades ago, I suppose the equivalence would have been grandparents' in awe of their grandchildren's ability to set up the VCR to record every episode of Coronation Street.
You've done an edit. Well done, you have learnt a new thing.

So, the track that I think you are talking about runs from Green End Road to Green End Farm (north to south, generally) and then very shortly afterwards joins Gorsey Green Lane. That's the one that you say your mapping software tries to send you down, but you can't actually cycle on it, because there's a locked gate and biosecurity signs.

From the history it seems you have marked the track as private, and have made a very useful comment about the locked gate. It isn't clear (to me) from the history who, if anybody, approved your edit. But it may have worked. In Komoot, if I set a very short route from one end of that track to the other, Komoot sends me the "long way round", south east down Green End Road, then south west down Gorsey Green Lane. But only if the route is on either of those roads. If I venture even slightly on to that track itself, it sends me down that track. Which doesn't really make sense. The results in Komoot are also bike type dependent. It won't send me down that lane at all if I set the type to "road cycling".

Richard's mapping doesn't send you down that track under any circumstances, as far as I can tell. I've tried to drag the start and finish on to that track, and it won't let me, whereas Komoot will.

That is how I sometimes "test" different mapping softwares. Take an awkward section, and see how the different ones handle it. I've tried two, with your route, with different results. I invite you to try some others of the gazillion cycle map routing apps there seem to be.

It may be that Komoot, being an "international" application (as far as I know), handles things which are to do with permissions differently to how Richard's application does?

You know the area, and you say you have OS maps, which are ambiguous. Here's some things to consider:

1. "Allowed access" (in OSM) implies more to do with the law, land ownership, permissions. Things like that.

2. As it's bike mapping we're interested in, perhaps edit the "allowed access" with a little more granularity - specifically for bikes.

3. Or maybe change the "private" to simply "no". Those two words might mean the same thing, or they might mean different things. And that may change in different parts of the world.

4. The thing that has stopped you, physically, from cycling up that lane, is a locked gate. Rather than guess whether or not you're allowed to cycle there, perhaps add that locked gate to OSM.

I won't make any edits to it, as I don't know the area at all, whereas you clearly do.

Now then, in those investigations I just did, and in past edits I've done, there has been no "coding" at all. I actually know how to write in a couple of computer programming languages, a little. But that wasn't what I just did. What I did do was enter the postcode of the place you mentioned, found the lane, clicked on various elements, opened up the edit boxes etc. etc. I did no coding or computing. I used a computer, a tool. My wife wouldn't know a cylinder head gasket from a big end bearing. In fact she's not too sure what the car's gears are (it's an automatic). But she can use the tool, the car. Somebody else designed the big end bearings, an engineer who did all sorts of clever things to make sure it worked. And somebody else has done the "coding" to enable you and I to edit OSM.

There's nothing "rare and talented" about signing on for an OSM account, then opening a map and doing what I just did. Just a willingness to spend some time looking at a screen and learning how stuff works. Most of the complexity of OSM is in the huge number of features and tags, and figuring out when one or the other might be appropriate, as above. That's got nothing to do with "coding".
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by matt_twam_asi »

maximus meridius wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 1:23amIt isn't clear (to me) from the history who, if anybody, approved your edit. But it may have worked.

Nobody approves edits to OSM. New mappers are encouraged to (optionally) mark their changes to be reviewed, but the changes still go straight into the database.
maximus meridius wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 1:23am1. "Allowed access" (in OSM) implies more to do with the law, land ownership, permissions. Things like that.
I'm unclear on what you mean by this. OSM access tags should always describe the legal restrictions on a way and should follow what is the truth on the ground. Is there a situation when access should detail any more than this?
maximus meridius wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 1:23am2. As it's bike mapping we're interested in, perhaps edit the "allowed access" with a little more granularity - specifically for bikes.
It wouldn't make any difference in freiston's case though, unless the way was private except for bikes, pedestrians etc. If it's private for all then a general access tag is fine.
maximus meridius wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 1:23am3. Or maybe change the "private" to simply "no". Those two words might mean the same thing, or they might mean different things. And that may change in different parts of the world.
In OSM they mean different things.
Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

maximus meridius wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 1:23amIt may be that Komoot, being an "international" application (as far as I know), handles things which are to do with permissions differently to how Richard's application does?
Pretty much. Komoot will route over a bare highway=track with no additional access tags. That's a very dangerous assumption to make in the UK. cycle.travel won't route over highway=track in the UK unless there's also a bicycle=yes tag (or one of several other signifiers).
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simonineaston
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by simonineaston »

As a newb. to editing open street map, I must say I find both Richard's comments as well as the OSM wiki, helpful. It is a bit of mine-field and especially to those who are new to it. The wiki is helpful in that it gives defintions of the various tags and how they should be used. There's an awful lot to it and I for one am not going to make the assumption that things like tags / values and relations are all that intuitive.
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maximus meridius
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by maximus meridius »

simonineaston wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 11:16am It is a bit of mine-field and especially to those who are new to it.
Easy to deal with though: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag ... Dminefield
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by maximus meridius »

simonineaston wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 11:16amThere's an awful lot to it and I for one am not going to make the assumption that things like tags / values and relations are all that intuitive.
Yes, exactly my point. That OSM mapping has got nothing to do with IT literacy. But is to do with understanding the mapping system, and trying to work out which tags do what.
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Re: Open Street Map - editing & learning

Post by maximus meridius »

matt_twam_asi wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 8:48am
maximus meridius wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 1:23amIt isn't clear (to me) from the history who, if anybody, approved your edit. But it may have worked.

Nobody approves edits to OSM. New mappers are encouraged to (optionally) mark their changes to be reviewed, but the changes still go straight into the database.
That is why I used the phrase "if anybody". Thanks for the information.
matt_twam_asi wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 8:48am
maximus meridius wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 1:23am1. "Allowed access" (in OSM) implies more to do with the law, land ownership, permissions. Things like that.
I'm unclear on what you mean by this. OSM access tags should always describe the legal restrictions on a way and should follow what is the truth on the ground. Is there a situation when access should detail any more than this?
Quite possibly. The "truth on the ground" as you put it, may very well be vastly different to any legal rights. That's why I sometimes ride on the pavement. But if your point is that the intention of "allowed access" tags is to identify the legal rights of access then that is clear. My phrase "the law, land ownership, permissions" may have been too wordy for you, or unclear. But those three things may, or may not, overlap or combine to affect legal access.
matt_twam_asi wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 8:48am
maximus meridius wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 1:23am2. As it's bike mapping we're interested in, perhaps edit the "allowed access" with a little more granularity - specifically for bikes.
It wouldn't make any difference in freiston's case though, unless the way was private except for bikes, pedestrians etc. If it's private for all then a general access tag is fine.
Quite possibly. I was encouraging freiston to explore or consider other possibilities.
matt_twam_asi wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 8:48am
maximus meridius wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 1:23am3. Or maybe change the "private" to simply "no". Those two words might mean the same thing, or they might mean different things. And that may change in different parts of the world.
In OSM they mean different things.
Interesting, thanks for that. Notable that despite the idea that "access" tags are always to do with legal restrictions, the wiki article gives an example where "access=no" might be appropriate because of a physical barrier. In fact the section of the wiki article devoted to "access=no" is almost entirely concerned with physical reasons why that tag might be appropriate, rather than the legal ones which are supposed to be the reason for using an "access" tag. Hence why I suggest that a locked gate, being a physical barrier, would be a sensible thing to add to one end of the lane. And why an "access=no" tag might be appropriate (at least for a section of the track), as per the wiki article. Of course one may think that it can't be "access=no" because the farm workers need access. But the wiki article centres around the idea of "access=no" being use for work under construction. So the construction workers need access. It seems to me that "access=private" is actually appropriate there, except that of course will need updating once the work is done. But so would "access=no". The temporary nature of the roadworks notwithstanding. As some roadworks can last a long time.
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