Where is the North - South line in England?

[Biospace]

Yorkshire, so maybe that’s the epicentre, if not the start, of the The North

Indeed Yorkshire is the epicentre of The North

More seriously, it's remarkable how a map of 8th century Southern Britain correlates well with people and culture I observe today, although the power of London does make itself felt in cities as far North as York and Leeds, something which has occurred since the 1980s. Something Mark Tewdwr-Jones of Newcastle University picked up on fairly recently, it's odd to see as someone who grew up when things were very different.

Danelaw stretched roughly from the Thames estuary to the Dee estuary and left a deep mark on our land. The Normans (themselves of Viking heritage) then took over much the southern half of Britain and were responsible for near total decimation of 'The North'.

More broadly, pre-Roman Brigantia closely resembles what I would consider as 'The North'. It's very likely that Hadrian's Wall was built as much to prevent the formation of closer association between the Brigantes and tribes in what is now Lowland Scotland, against the occupying Roman forces, as a border wall.

Brigantes.png (35.17 KiB) Viewed 437 times

[pwa]

Don't forget, we have to allow for a Midlands to exist. If you take your definition of the North too far south, you squeeze out the Midlands.

For me, places like Stoke on Trent are in the border area where it becomes debateable. I'd put Stoke in the Midlands, but only just. The Peak District is definitely in the North.

[Tangled Metal]

If you did include Scotland then you could call Scotland England border as the North South line. However the discussion in the media was only discussing England. Not very inclusive I know but my recollection of the nations was always that each had it's own regional prejudices without trying to tag onto the English ones.

I have lived most of my life in West Lancashire, East Lancashire then North Lancashire. All of those would count as Northern to be but only one was North of the Lancaster line someone posted.

I used to think that in the dim and distant past south was where the silly house prices were. The North had proper valued housing stock. Now that doesn't work unless you think all cities are southern and all smaller towns and rural are northern North of Cheshire.

Lancashire, Yorkshire Cumbria and Northumbria are probably Northern, as in county palatine Lancashire which includes furness, Liverpool and Manchester.

PS my autocorrect makes my typed name for Manchester more PC by filling in the missing letters. I've never saved the full name so how is it doing it? Why? Am I being censored by my phone?

[PH]

Don't forget, we have to allow for a Midlands to exist. If you take your definition of the North too far south, you squeeze out the Midlands.

For me, places like Stoke on Trent are in the border area where it becomes debateable. I'd put Stoke in the Midlands, but only just. The Peak District is definitely in the North.

A lot of the Peak District is in Derbyshire, which I'd certainly consider to be Midlands.
IMO the Midlands is the area North of Oxford and South of Sheffield.

[pwa]

The North, in this context, is northern England. So the question is, how far south from the border with Scotland (which isn't Hadrians's Wall, by the way) do you go before you enter the Midlands of England. I am more familiar with the western side than the east. On the western side, debate begins around the Cheshire / Staffordshire area. To the east, Derby is up for grabs, but all of Yorkshire is North. I will take more informed views on Lincolnshire / Nottinghamshire.

[pwa]

Don't forget, we have to allow for a Midlands to exist. If you take your definition of the North too far south, you squeeze out the Midlands.

For me, places like Stoke on Trent are in the border area where it becomes debateable. I'd put Stoke in the Midlands, but only just. The Peak District is definitely in the North.

A lot of the Peak District is in Derbyshire, which I'd certainly consider to be Midlands.
IMO the Midlands is the area North of Oxford and South of Sheffield.

When I spent time in New Mills a couple of years ago it looked like a Northern Pennines town, like Todmorden, and the people sounded properly Northern. When I'm in the southern Peak District I feel that I'm in The North. The accents are Northern. It looks Northern.

[geocycle]

If you look at this genetically then east-west is more important than north-south, certainly pre-20th C. Britons are to the west (Cumbria, Lancashire, Wales, Cornwall, Devon and Anglo-Saxons to the East. The Roman Wall has already divided the 'British Midlands' by the 6th century, creating striking genetic differences between Scotland and northern England.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2015/mar/fir ... tish-isles

Two interesting findings stood out:

'There was not a single "Celtic" genetic group. In fact the Celtic parts of the UK (Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Cornwall) are among the most different from each other genetically. For example, the Cornish are much more similar genetically to other English groups than they are to the Welsh or the Scots.

Individuals sampled from Cornwall form separate genetic groups to those in Devon, with a division almost exactly along the modern county boundary.'

[pwa]

It would be interesting to hear from people who come from the contentious areas. I think their definitions are what really counts.

My nearest town when I was growing up was Bolton, and I was never in any doubt that I lived in The North.

[PH]

Don't forget, we have to allow for a Midlands to exist. If you take your definition of the North too far south, you squeeze out the Midlands.

For me, places like Stoke on Trent are in the border area where it becomes debateable. I'd put Stoke in the Midlands, but only just. The Peak District is definitely in the North.

A lot of the Peak District is in Derbyshire, which I'd certainly consider to be Midlands.
IMO the Midlands is the area North of Oxford and South of Sheffield.

When I spent time in New Mills a couple of years ago it looked like a Northern Pennines town, like Todmorden, and the people sounded properly Northern. When I'm in the southern Peak District I feel that I'm in The North. The accents are Northern. It looks Northern.

Maybe it's a blurred line somewhere in the Peak District, I agree New Mills does have a grim Northern Mill town look, though the likes of Bakewell or Matlock don't.

[pwa]

A lot of the Peak District is in Derbyshire, which I'd certainly consider to be Midlands.
IMO the Midlands is the area North of Oxford and South of Sheffield.

When I spent time in New Mills a couple of years ago it looked like a Northern Pennines town, like Todmorden, and the people sounded properly Northern. When I'm in the southern Peak District I feel that I'm in The North. The accents are Northern. It looks Northern.

Maybe it's a blurred line somewhere in the Peak District, I agree New Mills does have a grim Northern Mill town look, though the likes of Bakewell or Matlock don't.

And it isn't going to be a line at all, is it, but a transition zone with some places northern or not Northern depending who you ask. After all, The North is really just a concept, never formally defined because it has never been an administrative area as such. It is bound to be blurred around the edges.

[Lance Dopestrong]

This thread has prompted a conversation with Mrs Dopestrong, who is a Coventry lass. We live just on the Northants side of the Rutland border and Mrs D reckons one does not have to travel far North of Leicester to start hearing accents which sound more Northern to her ear.

[Pendodave]

Maybe it's a blurred line somewhere in the Peak District, I agree New Mills does have a grim Northern Mill town look, though the likes of Bakewell or Matlock don't.

No need for a blurred line, Just use the dark peak (millstone grit)/white peak(carboniferous limestone). geological structures.
Not perfect - although the white peak is in the Southern part of the peaks, there are some dark peak areas around its east and west edges.

[PH]

Maybe it's a blurred line somewhere in the Peak District,

And it isn't going to be a line at all, is it, but a transition zone

I only stepped into this to refute your definitively putting the Peak District in the North!

[peetee]

It’s all relative.
Where I grew up Manchester was most definitely way down south.
These days I always chuckle when Bristol is described as the west of England as it’s 180 miles east of me!

[pwa]

Maybe it's a blurred line somewhere in the Peak District,

And it isn't going to be a line at all, is it, but a transition zone

I only stepped into this to refute your definitively putting the Peak District in the North!

Yes, just my impression. Which is all we are talking about really. Impressions. Feelings. I can't really be dfinitive about the Peak District because I'm not from there. My visits to the Peak District have been to places that to me, felt Northern. I didn't ask anyone from those places how they felt about it, which is a better way of settling it. And I'd be surprised if places in the more disputed areas don't have locals in both camps. That's why I suggest your blurred lines might be best considered a transition zone, with some places a bit Northern and a bit not-Northern.