Where is the North - South line in England?

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Biospace
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by Biospace »

Observing the shapes of the land can often be as helpful as a 'political' map. Indistinctly-shaped borderlands sometimes exist where people regard themselves as neither one nor the other, who'd be accepted by both communities and have been recognised by some as being less ideological. I know someone from The Borders who feels equally at home in Newcastle or Edinburgh for an evening out, complete with a very particular accent. Rory Stewart made an interesting TV program about borderlands sometime in the last decade.

Cugel says "I always found most places south of Sheffield like a foreign country", I echo his sentiments about the 'Home' counties too. The Norman feudal system has no place in much of Britain, the Romans were much more understanding of local cultures, if no less greedy.

According to the Romans, Yorkshire as we now know it was mostly populated by the Brigantes tribes, the Parisi were to the south and east of York and have been both archaeologically and genetically linked to people from the Paris area. Even today, it's like going to a foreign land when heading over the Wolds or even into darkest Ryedale (the large area between the North York Moors and Yorkshire Wolds).

tene chariot parisii.jpg
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drossall
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by drossall »

In my experience, most people believe that The North starts about fifty miles north of where they live. This includes residents of both Brighton and Berwick on Tweed.

I was always told that the "border" was at Watford Gap. Not sure that I think that now.
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mjr
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by mjr »

Lance Dopestrong wrote: 7 Mar 2023, 5:07pm This thread has prompted a conversation with Mrs Dopestrong, who is a Coventry lass. We live just on the Northants side of the Rutland border and Mrs D reckons one does not have to travel far North of Leicester to start hearing accents which sound more Northern to her ear.
Northamptonshire people are northerners with a southern accent. That's probably a reasonable description of Midlanders.
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Nearholmer
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by Nearholmer »

IMO, the Northamptonshire accent is one of the most curious in the entire country, and it’s probably dying out faster (or should that be “faahsta”) than the better known ones. It’s got all sorts of influences in it, which befits the location.
drossall
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by drossall »

Even the location of the Midlands is unclear. It usually starts ten miles north (or south) of where someone lives. So some would say that Northants is in the south, and Staffordshire is more representative of the Midlands, with at least the southern part of Cheshire also being included.
axel_knutt
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by axel_knutt »

A line from the Dee to the Wash. I'm from Leeds, and I don't consider that the South, or the Midlands.
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by drossall »

I was born in Leeds and I'd agree. But you might perhaps get some people debating whether Sheffield is in the North or the Midlands... Chesterfield certainly.
Biospace
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by Biospace »

Nearholmer wrote: 7 Mar 2023, 10:20pm IMO, the Northamptonshire accent is one of the most curious in the entire country, and it’s probably dying out faster (or should that be “faahsta”) than the better known ones. It’s got all sorts of influences in it, which befits the location.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Whenever i visited Derbyshire and the peak district I've always thought the accent was Southern or a bit Midlands,

Possibly a bit contentious but I don't really consider England to be split into North, South and Midlands. I see it as North or south without a third area. Although Birmingham is possibly a foreign country to me more than the south is. Call it midlandshire and give it it's independence! That'd wind the Scots nats up a bit!

(Just spotted that my phone and tablet autocorrect changes Scots nats to Scots nuts! If you read that in any of my posts I apologise in advance, it's not down to me. I've just missed it that's all! )
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by Tangled Metal »

As an added incentive to get this right, what if regions of England got devolution Scottish style? Where would you define the edge of a hypothetical northern England parliamentary boundary?

BTW I'm coming around to that idea personally the more the two main parties get headed by useless posh men like Boris, richi and Starmer.
Pebble
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by Pebble »

Biospace wrote: 7 Mar 2023, 5:54pm Observing the shapes of the land can often be as helpful as a 'political' map. Indistinctly-shaped borderlands sometimes exist where people regard themselves as neither one nor the other, who'd be accepted by both communities and have been recognised by some as being less ideological. I know someone from The Borders who feels equally at home in Newcastle or Edinburgh for an evening out, complete with a very particular accent. Rory Stewart made an interesting TV program about borderlands sometime in the last decade.
When I first moved into the Borders from Geordieland, and bear in mind I worked on the wagons, it was very common for other drivers based in the borders to say either I'm heading up into Scotland or maybe I'm heading down into England - as if they were from niether of these countries! I love this attitude, I don't think I have a great allegiance to either country, may be scotland if push come to shove, I would never leave.

I spend a fair bit of time in both Newcastle & Edinburgh, wife is pure banks of the tyne geordie. Night life is supposed to be better on tyneside or at least the youngsters reckon it is, For us its Edinburgh, fantastic city, we never tire of it, so many things to do and see, think we're going there today, just a great place to be.

But getting back on topic, somewhere down in southern yorkshire, it all changes into somewhere else, may be that is down south, but then again, M25 and beyond really is an alien world, is it really still britain?

Centre of population is an interesting concept apparently it was at somewhere called Appleby Parva in Leicestershire? however that was a few years ago and it has and continuues to head south east.

pwa wrote: 7 Mar 2023, 4:43pm The North, in this context, is northern England. So the question is, how far south from the border with Scotland (which isn't Hadrians's Wall, by the way) do you go before you enter the Midlands of England. I am more familiar with the western side than the east. On the western side, debate begins around the Cheshire / Staffordshire area. To the east, Derby is up for grabs, but all of Yorkshire is North. I will take more informed views on Lincolnshire / Nottinghamshire.
I remember a while back Scotland where playing England in the football, and in the BBC build up to this international they had some footage taken from a helicopter flying along Hadrian's wall - what a thoroughly out of touch londen-centric organisation they are.
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by Lance Dopestrong »

Tangled Metal wrote: 7 Mar 2023, 11:39pm BTW I'm coming around to that idea personally the more the two main parties get headed by useless posh men like Boris, richi and Starmer.
Starmer, posh? :lol:

Nice idea re English devolution though. Never thought of it that way. If that ever happened I wonder if the regional assemblies might take on more significant roles and whether that might affect either the notional or actual location of the divide?
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DaveReading
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

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francovendee
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by francovendee »

Lance Dopestrong wrote: 8 Mar 2023, 6:49am
Tangled Metal wrote: 7 Mar 2023, 11:39pm BTW I'm coming around to that idea personally the more the two main parties get headed by useless posh men like Boris, richi and Starmer.
Starmer, posh? :lol:

Nice idea re English devolution though. Never thought of it that way. If that ever happened I wonder if the regional assemblies might take on more significant roles and whether that might affect either the notional or actual location of the divide?
Starmer must be posh, I can understand every word he says. :lol: :lol: :lol:
mattheus
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Re: Where is the North - South line in England?

Post by mattheus »

Tangled Metal wrote: 7 Mar 2023, 11:39pm As an added incentive to get this right, what if regions of England got devolution Scottish style? Where would you define the edge of a hypothetical northern England parliamentary boundary?

BTW I'm coming around to that idea personally the more the two main parties get headed by useless posh men like Boris, richi and Starmer.
This is such a widespread idea that I can't resist rebutting it:

Daft idea. Look how many people in any of the home counties (or the rest of the "South" of England) would vote these people out. You can't simply assume that Westminster represents the surrounding area very well, far-flung regions not at all.

(same goes for Brexit referendum, it's nonsense to say that only the Scots voted against it. etc. etc and indeed, etc ... )
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