An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

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reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by reohn2 »

Ben@Forest wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 5:15pm
reohn2 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 2:14pm
francovendee wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 10:21am
And Richard Sharp remains in post! :x
Quite! :?
The question here though is of course if people who support Lineker's position would also support him if he took Braverman's part. If they do then fine - but l suspect if Lineker tweeted Brexit-supporting and pro-immigration control opinions then there would simply be complaints from different people about a man who earns £1.3 million from the BBC.
Obviously it would be different people who'd support a different opinion from whoever.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see your point.
BTW,if you were asked to do a job that drew on your expertise by talking about it on TV that came with a salary of £1.3million would you say no?
I strongly suspect you'd take the job,so exactly what is it that GL is doing wrong in his job?
Outside of his job in his private life he's said on social media what he believes is right and,although you may not believe it,but he has huge support in that.
Last edited by reohn2 on 11 Mar 2023, 6:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
pwa
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Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by pwa »

reohn2 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:13pm
Ben@Forest wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 5:15pm
reohn2 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 2:14pm

Quite! :?
The question here though is of course if people who support Lineker's position would also support him if he took Braverman's part. If they do then fine - but l suspect if Lineker tweeted Brexit-supporting and pro-immigration control opinions then there would simply be complaints from different people about a man who earns £1.3 million from the BBC.
Obviously it would be different people who'd support a different opinion from whoever.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see your point.
I suppose the point is, are Lineker's supporters backing him simply because they think it is right that he is able to express any opinion freely, or are they only backing him because his opinion agrees with theirs. And would they back him if he was saying something they disagree with?
reohn2
Posts: 45159
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:24pm
reohn2 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:13pm
Ben@Forest wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 5:15pm

The question here though is of course if people who support Lineker's position would also support him if he took Braverman's part. If they do then fine - but l suspect if Lineker tweeted Brexit-supporting and pro-immigration control opinions then there would simply be complaints from different people about a man who earns £1.3 million from the BBC.
Obviously it would be different people who'd support a different opinion from whoever.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see your point.
I suppose the point is, are Lineker's supporters backing him simply because they think it is right that he is able to express any opinion freely, or are they only backing him because his opinion agrees with theirs. And would they back him if he was saying something they disagree with?
It's his opinion that's drawing the support,were it the opposite opinion supporting the Braverman narritive I strongly suspect he wouldn't have the same support.
That's the point isn't it?
Last edited by reohn2 on 11 Mar 2023, 7:01pm, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Ben@Forest
Posts: 3647
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by Ben@Forest »

reohn2 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:13pm
Ben@Forest wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 5:15pm
The question here though is of course if people who support Lineker's position would also support him if he took Braverman's part. If they do then fine - but l suspect if Lineker tweeted Brexit-supporting and pro-immigration control opinions then there would simply be complaints from different people about a man who earns £1.3 million from the BBC.
Obviously it would be different people who'd support a different opinion from whoever.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see your point.
What I'm saying is that it is the principle that is important. Either we believe Lineker can tweet what he wants or we don't. If he tweeted support of Braverman and that was deemed inappropriate then the same people who support him now (Ian Wright, Alan Shearer, the Guardian opinion writers et al) should be supporting his right to have a right-of-centre or right wing opinion - would they?
Zulu Eleven
Posts: 235
Joined: 26 Oct 2018, 9:25pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by Zulu Eleven »

I think Venn diagram comparing the people who are currently supporting Lineker for expressing his opinion about Braverman, versus those who just a few few weeks ago, were calling for Clarkson to be sacked after him expressing an opinion about Henry Markle’s wife, would be an interesting exercise…
slowster
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Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by slowster »

Ben@Forest wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 5:15pm The question here though is of course if people who support Lineker's position would also support him if he took Braverman's part. If they do then fine - but l suspect if Lineker tweeted Brexit-supporting and pro-immigration control opinions then there would simply be complaints from different people about a man who earns £1.3 million from the BBC.
The question is why the BBC's senior executives have suspended a sports presenter for airing his personal views on a current political issue, given that they tolerated, for example:

- Andrew Neil similarly using Twitter (and chairing a right wing magazine) while he fronted one of the BBC's most important political discussion and analysis programmes

- Alan Sugar similarly using Twitter to criticise Jeremy Corbyn.

The BBC's treatment of Lineker looks very much like double standards, and that is what matters; not whether people who support Lineker would also support him if he voiced completely different views. Moreover, it appears that the senior leadership of the BBC have acted in this way in response to Government criticism and pressure.

How much Lineker is paid by the BBC is completely irrelevant to the substantive issues in this case. Those who keep mentioning "£1.3M" appear to be trying to undermine support for Lineker by making people envious of his wealth.
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by pwa »

reohn2 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:27pm
pwa wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:24pm
reohn2 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:13pm

Obviously it would be different people who'd support a different opinion from whoever.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see your point.
I suppose the point is, are Lineker's supporters backing him simply because they think it is right that he is able to express any opinion freely, or are they only backing him because his opinion agrees with theirs. And would they back him if he was saying something they disagree with?
It's his opinion that's drawing the support,were it the opposite opinion supporting the Braverman narritive I strongly suspect he would have the same support.
That's the point isn't it?
Yes. I think his controversial comment was a bit OTT, as comments usually are when they compare something in modern day UK with the Nazis of 1930s Germany, but I broadly agree with him apart from that. What I am not so sure about is whether I want a top tier BBC person voicing their opinion on a party political matter publicly. It does lend credence to those who claim the BBC is full of lefties peddling their lefty views. I'd prefer that the BBC deals with the Tories by probing and exposing, the way it does so well.
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by reohn2 »

Ben@Forest wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:28pm
reohn2 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:13pm
Ben@Forest wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 5:15pm
The question here though is of course if people who support Lineker's position would also support him if he took Braverman's part. If they do then fine - but l suspect if Lineker tweeted Brexit-supporting and pro-immigration control opinions then there would simply be complaints from different people about a man who earns £1.3 million from the BBC.
Obviously it would be different people who'd support a different opinion from whoever.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see your point.
What I'm saying is that it is the principle that is important. Either we believe Lineker can tweet what he wants or we don't. If he tweeted support of Braverman and that was deemed inappropriate then the same people who support him now (Ian Wright, Alan Shearer, the Guardian opinion writers et al) should be supporting his right to have a right-of-centre or right wing opinion - would they?
My bold
IMHO I believe he has the right to voice his opinion publicly,because it doesn't interfere with his job as a football pundit YVMV.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45159
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:41pm
reohn2 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:27pm
pwa wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:24pm
I suppose the point is, are Lineker's supporters backing him simply because they think it is right that he is able to express any opinion freely, or are they only backing him because his opinion agrees with theirs. And would they back him if he was saying something they disagree with?
It's his opinion that's drawing the support,were it the opposite opinion supporting the Braverman narritive I strongly suspect he would have the same support.
That's the point isn't it?
Yes. I think his controversial comment was a bit OTT, as comments usually are when they compare something in modern day UK with the Nazis of 1930s Germany, but I broadly agree with him apart from that. What I am not so sure about is whether I want a top tier BBC person voicing their opinion on a party political matter publicly. It does lend credence to those who claim the BBC is full of lefties peddling their lefty views. I'd prefer that the BBC deals with the Tories by probing and exposing, the way it does so well.
See my reply to Ben.

EDIT:- i've edited my previous reply to you see the change in bold.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Ben@Forest
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by Ben@Forest »

slowster wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:32pm How much Lineker is paid by the BBC is completely irrelevant to the substantive issues in this case. Those who keep mentioning "£1.3M" appear to be trying to undermine support for Lineker by making people envious of his wealth.
I'm not sure that's fair. Lineker is the highest paid presenter on the BBC, though with the way these things work now he is actually freelance, but he is only associated with the BBC in the UK at least (though it came out he had done previous work in Qatar before criticising it thoroughly prior to the most recent World Cup). He also criticised racism in the USA when it was partly awarded the
2026 World Cup.

We associate Lineker with the BBC and have done so for 30 years. It's impossible to pretend what he tweets does not associate itself with his major role as a BBC presenter.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:24pm
reohn2 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 6:13pm
Ben@Forest wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 5:15pm

The question here though is of course if people who support Lineker's position would also support him if he took Braverman's part. If they do then fine - but l suspect if Lineker tweeted Brexit-supporting and pro-immigration control opinions then there would simply be complaints from different people about a man who earns £1.3 million from the BBC.
Obviously it would be different people who'd support a different opinion from whoever.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see your point.
I suppose the point is, are Lineker's supporters backing him simply because they think it is right that he is able to express any opinion freely, or are they only backing him because his opinion agrees with theirs. And would they back him if he was saying something they disagree with?
I'm guessing from that you disagree with Lineker's views. Would those who don't like what he said be criticising him if he'd said something they agreed with.
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ossie
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Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by ossie »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 9:56am
ossie wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 8:09pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 10:42am For the population density afficionados here, it's darkly comic that Rwanda has a higher population density than the UK.

It's almost as though population density isn't the real concern.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... on_density
I find travel broadens the mind. If you were to travel around the UK you wouldn't argue against the fact that the UK is quite overcrowded . In short public services, the NHS, schools, prisons, the environment, roads and railways simply cannot keep up.
You're quite right. I should go somewhere less populated and with less immigrants, like, perhaps the Netherlands in order to get better public services.

It's almost as though you simply want to blame immigrants for problems of our own making.
Its almost like you like to put words in peoples mouths. The point was is the UK overcrowded and you starting spouting nonsense about St Maarten and Rwanda. They have nothing to do with the UK.

I agree however the overcrowding is of our own making. A poster further up the thread trumped economy over environment. Successive Governments have been relying on cheap labour to boost our economy and our current situation is the result.
Last edited by ossie on 11 Mar 2023, 8:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
slowster
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Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by slowster »

Ben@Forest wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 7:14pm I'm not sure that's fair. Lineker is the highest paid presenter on the BBC, though with the way these things work now he is actually freelance, but he is only associated with the BBC in the UK at least (though it came out he had done previous work in Qatar before criticising it thoroughly prior to the most recent World Cup). He also criticised racism in the USA when it was partly awarded the
2026 World Cup.

We associate Lineker with the BBC and have done so for 30 years. It's impossible to pretend what he tweets does not associate itself with his major role as a BBC presenter.
A sports presenter. The attention being focused on him by the right and their expectation that he should observe purdah on political issues is in stark contrast to how other high profile BBC non-news presenters have been treated, e.g. Jeremy Clarkson calling Gordon Brown a 'one eyed scottish idiot'. I think most people are sufficiently intelligent to be able to distinguish between Lineker's role at the BBC as a sports presenter, and his personal opinions on political matters.

You appear to be suggesting that Lineker's right to voice an opinion on a political subject should be constrained not because of who he is or what he does, but because of how some people perceive him. That is not his problem, and nor do I think it is the BBC's problem.

What is really at the heart of this, is that we have a government which has embraced populism, and which fears Lineker because he is widely trusted and respected by people whose votes the government is seeking to win by populist measures.
Zulu Eleven
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Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by Zulu Eleven »

slowster wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 8:09pm. The attention being focused on him by the right and their expectation that he should observe purdah on political issues is in stark contrast to how other high profile BBC non-news presenters have been treated, e.g. Jeremy Clarkson calling Gordon Brown a 'one eyed scottish idiot'. I think most people are sufficiently intelligent to be able to distinguish between Lineker's role at the BBC as a sports presenter, and his personal opinions on political matters.
Strange. I’ve seen no end of left wing commentators calling for Clarkson to be sacked over a whole variety of public comments an almost monthly basis for the past twenty years, both while working for the BBC and otherwise. The particular example you give - the Gordon Brown comment - Clarkson was forced to apologise publicly by the then Director General, Mark Thomson. So yes, they are being treated exactly the same, difference is that Lineker has refused to apologise.
slowster
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Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by slowster »

Zulu Eleven wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 8:36pm Strange. I’ve seen no end of left wing commentators calling for Clarkson to be sacked over a whole variety of public comments an almost monthly basis for the past twenty years, both while working for the BBC and otherwise. The particular example you give - the Gordon Brown comment - Clarkson was forced to apologise publicly by the then Director General, Mark Thomson. So yes, they are being treated exactly the same, difference is that Lineker has refused to apologise.
There is an important difference between right and left wing commentators in the media criticising people in the public eye versus government ministers and MPs calling for Lineker to be silenced.

There are also important differences between calling the PM a 'one eyed scottish idiot' versus describing government actions as 'an immeasurably cruel policy directed at the most vulnerable people in language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the 30s'. As for Clarkson's apology, my impression is that was largely just a cynical ploy. He did not change his behaviour, and there were repeated controversies until he finally left the BBC, e.g. use of the term 'slope' in a very likely deliberately ambiguously racist context when recording in Vietnam and on another occasion physically assaulting a member of the production team. As for 'the difference is that Lineker has refused to apologise', I would question exactly what he should apologise for.
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