Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by Bmblbzzz »

pwa wrote: 5 Apr 2023, 10:19pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 5 Apr 2023, 8:58pm But probably none do if the barriers are like those in Vorpal's link.
Chicanes? In my nearest medium sized town there has been a transition on shared use paths from chicanes, which were then replaced with A frames, then those were removed from locations where it was deemed that they weren't necessary. I don't know what the OP faces.
It's not a chicane exactly. It's one of those designs where you'd expected to freewheel through a narrow gap with one pedal up and one down. The distance between barriers on those designs is usually too short for anything larger than a BMX to traverse as a chicane.

It's not possible to link directly to the photo so here's Vorpal's link to the page again:
https://www.mysociety.org/2021/08/02/fr ... ccessible/
pwa
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pwa »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 3:39pm
pwa wrote: 5 Apr 2023, 10:19pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 5 Apr 2023, 8:58pm But probably none do if the barriers are like those in Vorpal's link.
Chicanes? In my nearest medium sized town there has been a transition on shared use paths from chicanes, which were then replaced with A frames, then those were removed from locations where it was deemed that they weren't necessary. I don't know what the OP faces.
It's not a chicane exactly. It's one of those designs where you'd expected to freewheel through a narrow gap with one pedal up and one down. The distance between barriers on those designs is usually too short for anything larger than a BMX to traverse as a chicane.

It's not possible to link directly to the photo so here's Vorpal's link to the page again:
https://www.mysociety.org/2021/08/02/fr ... ccessible/
I would still call that a chicane, of sorts, because you are expected to use it that way if you have a wheelchair, mobility scooter or pushchair. Around here those were (as far as I can see) either just removed or replaced with A frames, mostly the former, around ten years ago, so I have to travel some distance to find them now. If I remember rightly, when I spoke to someone from Highways they were concerned to remove anything that could not be negotiated in a straightforward way with a mobility scooter. That was the goal they set themselves at that time. Barriers of the type in the image always looked to me like they invited you to ride straight through and see if you could catch your pedal on something. I could never understand the thinking behind them.
Jdsk
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by Jdsk »

This image?

Jonathan

Image
pwa
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pwa »

Yes.
pete75
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 10:01am The simple, practical solution is to get the tape measure out, survey the routes you envisage wanting to use most, then get a bicycle or whatever that fits. Or start a local campaign to have path infrastructure changed. Only one of those two solutions is likely to benefit you in a practical way in time for next summer. That's just how it is. We have debated the rights and wrongs of this before, at great length, but for the individual, wanting a practical solution PDQ, getting a machine that works on the routes as they are is the only way to ensure trouble-free cycling in the short to medium term.
Hmmm get a bike that fits, yes but not if someone needs a trike for health or balance reasons. Get a wheelchair that fits - is that actually possible. Getting a good battery angle grinder might be a better solution. The people who design and install these things think folk who aren't able bodied and riding a two wheeled bike should not have access. What about people who use a mobility scooter - do you think they should be denied access to these routes?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Psamathe
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by Psamathe »

In NL last summer I found some offset barriers (at start and end of bridge) that were a real struggle to get past on the tadpole - had to get off, lift back round, struggle more to get front back round to get onto bridge. But I recognised it was going to be a struggle before I tried as locals in their cargo bikes were having similar struggles (the "cargo bikes" with a big front "container" that normally carry a couple of kids around).

Ian
pwa
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 5:49pm
pwa wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 10:01am The simple, practical solution is to get the tape measure out, survey the routes you envisage wanting to use most, then get a bicycle or whatever that fits. Or start a local campaign to have path infrastructure changed. Only one of those two solutions is likely to benefit you in a practical way in time for next summer. That's just how it is. We have debated the rights and wrongs of this before, at great length, but for the individual, wanting a practical solution PDQ, getting a machine that works on the routes as they are is the only way to ensure trouble-free cycling in the short to medium term.
Hmmm get a bike that fits, yes but not if someone needs a trike for health or balance reasons. Get a wheelchair that fits - is that actually possible. Getting a good battery angle grinder might be a better solution. The people who design and install these things think folk who aren't able bodied and riding a two wheeled bike should not have access. What about people who use a mobility scooter - do you think they should be denied access to these routes?
A frames are designed around mobility scooters. Other barriers may not be. But which type is the OP facing? I don't know.
pete75
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 6:35pm
pete75 wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 5:49pm
pwa wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 10:01am The simple, practical solution is to get the tape measure out, survey the routes you envisage wanting to use most, then get a bicycle or whatever that fits. Or start a local campaign to have path infrastructure changed. Only one of those two solutions is likely to benefit you in a practical way in time for next summer. That's just how it is. We have debated the rights and wrongs of this before, at great length, but for the individual, wanting a practical solution PDQ, getting a machine that works on the routes as they are is the only way to ensure trouble-free cycling in the short to medium term.
Hmmm get a bike that fits, yes but not if someone needs a trike for health or balance reasons. Get a wheelchair that fits - is that actually possible. Getting a good battery angle grinder might be a better solution. The people who design and install these things think folk who aren't able bodied and riding a two wheeled bike should not have access. What about people who use a mobility scooter - do you think they should be denied access to these routes?
A frames are designed around mobility scooters. Other barriers may not be. But which type is the OP facing? I don't know.
Why put barriers up at all? They don't in Holland or France or Belgium, well not on any cycle tracks I've used anyway.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 7:05pm
pwa wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 6:35pm
pete75 wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 5:49pm

Hmmm get a bike that fits, yes but not if someone needs a trike for health or balance reasons. Get a wheelchair that fits - is that actually possible. Getting a good battery angle grinder might be a better solution. The people who design and install these things think folk who aren't able bodied and riding a two wheeled bike should not have access. What about people who use a mobility scooter - do you think they should be denied access to these routes?
A frames are designed around mobility scooters. Other barriers may not be. But which type is the OP facing? I don't know.
Why put barriers up at all? They don't in Holland or France or Belgium, well not on any cycle tracks I've used anyway.
That's a good question. Not what the OP was asking, which is where my pragmatic suggestion of getting an Ice trike that fits comes in, but I suppose the thread was always going to come around to this topic. In my nearest town, as I've said, there has been a programme of removing barriers or, where they still think there is a need, replacing awkward with less awkward. And I think that is getting it about right. Miles of shared use paths that once had chicanes at access points now have zilch, except for the occasional slow-you-down thing to stop kids cycling directly out into moving traffic at busy roads. Some A frames remain on alleys in social housing estates where some folk have shown a liking for racing around pedestrian areas on off-road motorbikes. I know they can wiggle their motorbikes through if they really want to but in practice they take them somewhere with fewer obstacles instead. But on the whole there are a lot fewer barriers than there were twenty years ago. Haven't you seen similar changes near you?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.54539 ... 384!8i8192
Look at this access point and compare the two dates, 2011 and 2021, to see the way things have been progressing. 2011, A frame with an awkward approach. 2021, A frame removed and approach line less awkward.
Last edited by pwa on 6 Apr 2023, 8:22pm, edited 2 times in total.
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mjr
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by mjr »

pwa wrote: 5 Apr 2023, 6:20pmIt is the daft suggestion of using an angle grider that is funny.

Are you recommending the OP to go out with an angle grinder? Please say so if you really are recommending that. My own advice would be to not do that because if they got caught they could be in trouble. Yes, they could engage a smart lawyer and fight it in the courts, but I doubt most of us would want to go down that path.
I wouldn't recommend it unless the OP is confident that they can do a tidy job, safely, and not get caught. But cycle campaigners have definitely been doing it for years. I know two barriers that I believe were removed by mystery men (for it is usually men) with angle grinders and hi-viz in King's Lynn, hastening their removal by years. I also know of one where money was wasted putting the barrier back, with minor modifications which still don't make it legal but do make it more difficult to remove (whether legally or not). And I seem to recall John Grimshaw likes direct action. So it's a proud tradition. I expect CTCers used to be a bit more direct-action-y before it became known as Cycling To Cake.

Compare that with the glacial pace of council work. Back in November, ours announced the removal of five barriers. They actually only removed four and forgot one. They said then that the remaining one (about four-fifths of the way along the route) would be removed imminently. It was still there last week.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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pete75
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 8:03pm
pete75 wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 7:05pm
pwa wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 6:35pm
A frames are designed around mobility scooters. Other barriers may not be. But which type is the OP facing? I don't know.
Why put barriers up at all? They don't in Holland or France or Belgium, well not on any cycle tracks I've used anyway.
That's a good question. Not what the OP was asking, which is where my pragmatic suggestion of getting an Ice trike that fits comes in, but I suppose the thread was always going to come around to this topic. In my nearest town, as I've said, there has been a programme of removing barriers or, where they still think there is a need, replacing awkward with less awkward. And I think that is getting it about right. Miles of shared use paths that once had chicanes at access points now have zilch, except for the occasional slow-you-down thing to stop kids cycling directly out into moving traffic at busy roads. Some A frames remain on alleys in social housing estates where some folk have shown a liking for racing around pedestrian areas on off-road motorbikes. I know they can wiggle their motorbikes through if they really want to but in practice they take them somewhere with fewer obstacles instead. But on the whole there are a lot fewer barriers than there were twenty years ago. Haven't you seen similar changes near you?
They don't really have them round here, except in big places like Lincoln and Grantham but even there not many.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pete75 »

mjr wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 8:19pm
pwa wrote: 5 Apr 2023, 6:20pmIt is the daft suggestion of using an angle grider that is funny.

Are you recommending the OP to go out with an angle grinder? Please say so if you really are recommending that. My own advice would be to not do that because if they got caught they could be in trouble. Yes, they could engage a smart lawyer and fight it in the courts, but I doubt most of us would want to go down that path.
I wouldn't recommend it unless the OP is confident that they can do a tidy job, safely, and not get caught. But cycle campaigners have definitely been doing it for years. I know two barriers that I believe were removed by mystery men (for it is usually men) with angle grinders and hi-viz in King's Lynn, hastening their removal by years. I also know of one where money was wasted putting the barrier back, with minor modifications which still don't make it legal but do make it more difficult to remove (whether legally or not). And I seem to recall John Grimshaw likes direct action. So it's a proud tradition. I expect CTCers used to be a bit more direct-action-y before it became known as Cycling To Cake.

Compare that with the glacial pace of council work. Back in November, ours announced the removal of five barriers. They actually only removed four and forgot one. They said then that the remaining one (about four-fifths of the way along the route) would be removed imminently. It was still there last week.
I'd wager lots of money the early Clarion clubmen would have ripped them all down.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pwa »

mjr wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 8:19pm
pwa wrote: 5 Apr 2023, 6:20pmIt is the daft suggestion of using an angle grider that is funny.

Are you recommending the OP to go out with an angle grinder? Please say so if you really are recommending that. My own advice would be to not do that because if they got caught they could be in trouble. Yes, they could engage a smart lawyer and fight it in the courts, but I doubt most of us would want to go down that path.
I wouldn't recommend it unless the OP is confident that they can do a tidy job, safely, and not get caught. But cycle campaigners have definitely been doing it for years. I know two barriers that I believe were removed by mystery men (for it is usually men) with angle grinders and hi-viz in King's Lynn, hastening their removal by years. I also know of one where money was wasted putting the barrier back, with minor modifications which still don't make it legal but do make it more difficult to remove (whether legally or not). And I seem to recall John Grimshaw likes direct action. So it's a proud tradition. I expect CTCers used to be a bit more direct-action-y before it became known as Cycling To Cake.

Compare that with the glacial pace of council work. Back in November, ours announced the removal of five barriers. They actually only removed four and forgot one. They said then that the remaining one (about four-fifths of the way along the route) would be removed imminently. It was still there last week.
It has been a bit quicker around here, possibly helped by the motorcycle menace being less prominent than it once was. See the example i gave above. Fairly typical locally.

My suggestion to the OP to seek out an Ice trike that fits is pragmatic, given that they intend getting an Ice trike and some of them do fit A frames. And they may not see themselves as a have-a-go angle grinder warrior. Pressuring the local council is also an option, but likely to be slow to yield results.
pete75
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 8:30pm
mjr wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 8:19pm
pwa wrote: 5 Apr 2023, 6:20pmIt is the daft suggestion of using an angle grider that is funny.

Are you recommending the OP to go out with an angle grinder? Please say so if you really are recommending that. My own advice would be to not do that because if they got caught they could be in trouble. Yes, they could engage a smart lawyer and fight it in the courts, but I doubt most of us would want to go down that path.
I wouldn't recommend it unless the OP is confident that they can do a tidy job, safely, and not get caught. But cycle campaigners have definitely been doing it for years. I know two barriers that I believe were removed by mystery men (for it is usually men) with angle grinders and hi-viz in King's Lynn, hastening their removal by years. I also know of one where money was wasted putting the barrier back, with minor modifications which still don't make it legal but do make it more difficult to remove (whether legally or not). And I seem to recall John Grimshaw likes direct action. So it's a proud tradition. I expect CTCers used to be a bit more direct-action-y before it became known as Cycling To Cake.

Compare that with the glacial pace of council work. Back in November, ours announced the removal of five barriers. They actually only removed four and forgot one. They said then that the remaining one (about four-fifths of the way along the route) would be removed imminently. It was still there last week.
It has been a bit quicker around here, possibly helped by the motorcycle menace being less prominent than it once was. See the example i gave above. Fairly typical locally.

My suggestion to the OP to seek out an Ice trike that fits is pragmatic, given that they intend getting an Ice trike and some of them do fit A frames. And they may not see themselves as a have-a-go angle grinder warrior. Pressuring the local council is also an option, but likely to be slow to yield results.
Motorcycle menace? The biggest selling motorbikes in the UK are large adventure type bikes, headed up by the BMW R1250GS and high performance sports bikes like the Ducati Panigale. I can't see the owners of such machines wanting to use cycle paths. Just who are these motorcyclists councils and Sustrans think are itching to ride on cycleways? As a long time motorcyclist I imagine it's a myth. Most motorcyclists are getting on a bit, motorcyclists like myself who've kept it since their youth and new riders who've taken it up later in life , didn't start out properly, riding an old, knackered British 250 on L plates and haven't taken the proper motorbike test.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa
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Re: Trikes blocked by barriers on permitted routes

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote: 8 Apr 2023, 3:19pm
pwa wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 8:30pm
mjr wrote: 6 Apr 2023, 8:19pm
I wouldn't recommend it unless the OP is confident that they can do a tidy job, safely, and not get caught. But cycle campaigners have definitely been doing it for years. I know two barriers that I believe were removed by mystery men (for it is usually men) with angle grinders and hi-viz in King's Lynn, hastening their removal by years. I also know of one where money was wasted putting the barrier back, with minor modifications which still don't make it legal but do make it more difficult to remove (whether legally or not). And I seem to recall John Grimshaw likes direct action. So it's a proud tradition. I expect CTCers used to be a bit more direct-action-y before it became known as Cycling To Cake.

Compare that with the glacial pace of council work. Back in November, ours announced the removal of five barriers. They actually only removed four and forgot one. They said then that the remaining one (about four-fifths of the way along the route) would be removed imminently. It was still there last week.
It has been a bit quicker around here, possibly helped by the motorcycle menace being less prominent than it once was. See the example i gave above. Fairly typical locally.

My suggestion to the OP to seek out an Ice trike that fits is pragmatic, given that they intend getting an Ice trike and some of them do fit A frames. And they may not see themselves as a have-a-go angle grinder warrior. Pressuring the local council is also an option, but likely to be slow to yield results.
Motorcycle menace? The biggest selling motorbikes in the UK are large adventure type bikes, headed up by the BMW R1250GS and high performance sports bikes like the Ducati Panigale. I can't see the owners of such machines wanting to use cycle paths. Just who are these motorcyclists councils and Sustrans think are itching to ride on cycleways? As a long time motorcyclist I imagine it's a myth. Most motorcyclists are getting on a bit, motorcyclists like myself who've kept it since their youth and new riders who've taken it up later in life , didn't start out properly, riding an old, knackered British 250 on L plates and haven't taken the proper motorbike test.
I'm not talking about most motorcyclists. I'm talking about a sub culture in certain working class areas, who use unregistered, uninsured off-road motorbikes in public areas that include rugby fields (several damaged this last winter in this region), streets, footpaths and shared use paths. Nothing to do with a 50-something year old bloke riding his shiny motorbike on the roads on Sundays. If you read what I said as criticism of motorcyclists in general, my wording was at fault.

But the problem is a real one. Police action can help, but the police can't be there all the time. And they can't protect members of the community who supply them with names. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49960337 There are lots of stories like this one. But as I say, I think this menace has declined a bit in this area recently. Fingers crossed.
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