BEVs

[Carlton green]

As it happens I saw a bunch, well three, of them out for a ride this morning. Two Lambrettas and a Vespa, trailing their usual cloud of blue smoke. Whoever designs scooter engines is completely unaware of Walter Kaaden's work on the engine type. I think they're still running on about 25:1 oil mix. Might be a bit better if they were four strokes, though the only four stroke scooter I'm aware of is the Triumph Tigress and they stopped making them in about 1966.

Now you're just being silly and need to get you head out of the '60's with regard to scooters.The scooters you mention are regarded as "classic" vehicles and part of the Mod scene that's resurfaced in recent years,in the same way some 2stroke motorcycles from the 50's,60's and 70's such as Bantams,Francis Barnet/Villiers,some Kawasakis,Yamahas and Suzukis etc are regarded as classics.

All modern scooters made today for use in Europe and the UK are Euro5 compliant and by definition are 4strokes as mass produced 2stoke engines can't meet emissions legislation without choking their power so much as to render them useless,this has been the case since the late 70' early 80's which began with the USA's and particularly Californian emissions clamp down whic was quickly followed by the EU.

I strongly recommend you look at Honda,Suzuki and Yamaha's scooter catalogues,if you haven't already,for some truly "awesome" scooters with engines ranging from 50 to 400cc then there's Honda's crossover 750cc ADV with their DCT transmission.
Suzuki have only in the past few years stopped production of their flagship Burgman 650 Exscutive model a quite quick,fully loaded and very comfortable machine not unlike a small wheel twist and go scooter version of my NT700 Deauville albeit not quite as powerful .

EDIT:- I forgot to mention,also mentioned up thread by Upwrong the Electric scooter now emerging,though the range is reletively short but itpf the Honda battery bank takes off that wouldn't matter so much.

Whatever, they're still crap.

It’s always nice to see well informed and decisive words, it says so much about a chap …

Much of Walter Kaaden's work (on MZ motorcycles) was hidden behind the ‘Iron Curtain’, so not available to others (except, obviously, what might be gleaned via reverse engineering). Degner, who worked for Kaaden, defected to the West and went to work for Suzuki; he made two-strokes work for the Japanese.

[reohn2]

…Much of Walter Kaaden's work (on MZ motorcycles) was hidden behind the ‘Iron Curtain’, so not available to others (except, obviously, what might be gleaned via reverse engineering). Degner, who worked for Kaaden, defected to the West and went to work for Suzuki; he made two-strokes work for the Japanese.

He certainly did and taught Suzuki all he knew about how to get most power out of 2stoke engines,which put Suzuki on the 2stroke map for the next 10 years until emission laws stopped their tap,butnthey haven't done badly making 4stoke bikes

[pete75]

Now you're just being silly and need to get you head out of the '60's with regard to scooters.The scooters you mention are regarded as "classic" vehicles and part of the Mod scene that's resurfaced in recent years,in the same way some 2stroke motorcycles from the 50's,60's and 70's such as Bantams,Francis Barnet/Villiers,some Kawasakis,Yamahas and Suzukis etc are regarded as classics.

All modern scooters made today for use in Europe and the UK are Euro5 compliant and by definition are 4strokes as mass produced 2stoke engines can't meet emissions legislation without choking their power so much as to render them useless,this has been the case since the late 70' early 80's which began with the USA's and particularly Californian emissions clamp down whic was quickly followed by the EU.

I strongly recommend you look at Honda,Suzuki and Yamaha's scooter catalogues,if you haven't already,for some truly "awesome" scooters with engines ranging from 50 to 400cc then there's Honda's crossover 750cc ADV with their DCT transmission.
Suzuki have only in the past few years stopped production of their flagship Burgman 650 Exscutive model a quite quick,fully loaded and very comfortable machine not unlike a small wheel twist and go scooter version of my NT700 Deauville albeit not quite as powerful .

EDIT:- I forgot to mention,also mentioned up thread by Upwrong the Electric scooter now emerging,though the range is reletively short but itpf the Honda battery bank takes off that wouldn't matter so much.

Whatever, they're still crap.

It’s always nice to see well informed and decisive words, it says so much about a chap …

Much of Walter Kaaden's work (on MZ motorcycles) was hidden behind the ‘Iron Curtain’, so not available to others (except, obviously, what might be gleaned via reverse engineering). Degner, who worked for Kaaden, defected to the West and went to work for Suzuki; he made two-strokes work for the Japanese.

All of Kaaden's work was made available to Suzuki when Degner defected. He was more than just a rider, but a development engineer as well. Yamaha picked up on the stuff pretty quickly as well. MZ's were sold in the west so port design, piston design etc was easily seen, as well as Kaaden's ideas on induction and exhaust systems. Even Villiers picked up on it quickly enough to produce the Starmaker, as did Greeves when they started modifying things like the 9E with different heads and barrels, then making their own engines.

I'm quite well informed about powered two wheelers having owned ridden, built, repaired many ever since I got my first bike when I was 13. Currently have a Commando, Bonneville, RE Bullet Trials, RE Constellation, James Captain, MZ Supa 5, Velocette Mac, BMW R90S and BMW F800GT. What do you know about bikes and what do you have?

In my opinion the best things ever made as a ride to work machine for the non-enthusiast are the little Hondas , the C50, C70, C90.

[Carlton green]

Whatever, they're still crap.

It’s always nice to see well informed and decisive words, it says so much about a chap …

Much of Walter Kaaden's work (on MZ motorcycles) was hidden behind the ‘Iron Curtain’, so not available to others (except, obviously, what might be gleaned via reverse engineering). Degner, who worked for Kaaden, defected to the West and went to work for Suzuki; he made two-strokes work for the Japanese.

All of Kaaden's work was made available to Suzuki when Degner defected. He was more than just a rider, but a development engineers as well. Yamaha picked up on the stuff pretty quickly as well. MZ's were sold in the west so port design, piston design etc was easily seen. Villiers picked up on it quickly enough to produce the Starmaker, as did Greeves when they started modifying things like the 9E and then making their own engines.

I'm well informed enough about powered two wheelers having owned ridden, built, repaired etc many ever since I got my first bike when I was 13. What do you know about them?

As a youth I rode motorcycles for several years and did minor repairs to them. One of the bikes that I had was a MZ Supa Five, it had zero street cred with my palls but it got me about all over the place. I make no claim to be an expert but motorcycles proved enormously liberating for me; I rode mine all year around but the winter months could be tough. I ended up driving a car, a young chap finds that they have their advantages and particularly so on a date. If I started motorcycling again then actually a modern scooter would be at the top of my list of desirables - weather protection, automatic gears and great fuel economy.

Scooters you might not like, and I didn’t have one, but modern ones are big steps forward from the old Italian two stokes and one of those old scooters made a massive difference to one of my friends - very far from crap and very liberating to those that used them. For me it’s all about utility and indeed such things as the Honda 90 excelled at that, a pal at Technical College had one and it was fine for anywhere local.

You’ve an interesting assortment of large capacity motorcycles and I hope that you enjoy them too. Long ago I decided that such heavy and powerful machines weren’t for me; I don’t need their power and I don’t want their costs. You can - as you will know from being a MZ owner - cover the length of the UK on a 250cc bike and do so at the legal speed limit, I find no need for more than that. Indeed, if it were up to me, I’d cap both the engine power of cars and motorcycles - better for the planet and better for reducing accidents.

There you go then, not an expert but others like reohn2 can speak on much more equal terms with you.

[reohn2]

........In my opinion the best things ever made as a ride to work machine for the non-enthusiast are the little Hondas , the C50, C70, C90.

The Honda Cub in it's many and varied forms is an excellent machine,the latest and much updated version with the 125cc engine is able to keep up with modern traffic something the early C50,70,90 models might struggle with today.
Their problem is one of luggage capacity which is where a Honda PCX125 scooter literally in buckets full with 30ltres available under the seat and a hook between the legs to hang a shopping bag or handbag on,also the Cub suffers from only limited weather protection unlike the PCX which comes with an adjustable screen as standard and full frontal body weather protection.

Whether you like them or not small capacity modern day scooters are an extremely good,some might say "awesome" mode of short hop transport.
And if you need something bigger for longer faster commutes and enough power to carry a passenger for days out,Honda's newish ADV 350 is no slouch.I've ridden one for a couple of hours whilst my bike was in for service/MOT and found it cruises effortlessly at 70+ with quite a bit in reserve,abosolutely no vibration at those speeds and I was sat in a bubble of calm behind the screen and bodywork,like the PCX 125 very light agile handling due to low CG and surprisingly quick off the mark too for such small capacity machines.

BTW your collection of bike is quite "awesome" and shows you're an avid enthusiast/collector but as you can imagine not all two wheel riders are enthusiasts let alone collectors,for many people practicality is at the heart of their use of the vehicle,this includes,carrying capacity,somewhere to put their helmet and lock(s) whilst away from the bike and carry shopping home,fuel efficiency,low purchase and service costs and easy to use twist and go riding.
But getting back to the initial track of this thread,take such features to the next level by replacing the ICE engine with an electric motor,standardised batteries across many makes and established battery bank distribution like Honda/Kymco/Yamaha are in the process of rolling out in Asian countries the machine would be ultra efficient travel obout cities,etc
To simply write off such appealing features of such vehicles as " just crap" is to miss the whole point of two wheel utility travel by a mile.
BTW have you seen the Piaggio MP3,a very innovative three wheeled 300cc and 500cc scooters,the 300 which can be ridden on a car licence? :- https://youtu.be/XWenCaf3tjI
Awesomeness in a completely different form than performance motorcycles

[pete75]

My collection is "awesome"? Wouldn't go that far myself but it's not too bad.

[Biospace]

This looks like an intelligent and worthwhile approach to the EV.
But no batteries.

https://www.riversimple.com/88923-2/

May have been posted previously; I haven't trawled through all 40 pages.

Thanks for mentioning this car, for the first time in this thread I think. It's a very intelligent design from someone who understands the motor car deeply. From their website,

"As a sustainable car company we believe it is vital to raise awareness of non-exhaust emissions and take measures in the design of our vehicles to reduce them and protect our environment.

The single most controllable factor that we can manipulate to manage NEE’s is vehicle weight. It is well documented that the more weight a vehicle has, the more force tyres and brakes are subjected to and the more they wear."

[reohn2]

My collection is "awesome"? Wouldn't go that far myself but it's not too bad.

Your modesty is evident

[Biospace]

BTW have you seen the Piaggio MP3,a very innovative three wheeled 300cc and 500cc scooters,the 300 which can be ridden on a car licence? :- https://youtu.be/XWenCaf3tjI
Awesomeness in a completely different form than performance motorcycles

So these can be ridden (within the law) without a helmet also, presumably?

[reohn2]

BTW have you seen the Piaggio MP3,a very innovative three wheeled 300cc and 500cc scooters,the 300 which can be ridden on a car licence? :- https://youtu.be/XWenCaf3tjI
Awesomeness in a completely different form than performance motorcycles

So these can be ridden (within the law) without a helmet also, presumably?

Nope.

[pete75]

BTW have you seen the Piaggio MP3,a very innovative three wheeled 300cc and 500cc scooters,the 300 which can be ridden on a car licence? :- https://youtu.be/XWenCaf3tjI
Awesomeness in a completely different form than performance motorcycles

So these can be ridden (within the law) without a helmet also, presumably?

If it's classed as a trike,which seems likely if it can be driven on a car licence, a helmet isn't required by law.

[reohn2]

BTW have you seen the Piaggio MP3,a very innovative three wheeled 300cc and 500cc scooters,the 300 which can be ridden on a car licence? :- https://youtu.be/XWenCaf3tjI
Awesomeness in a completely different form than performance motorcycles

So these can be ridden (within the law) without a helmet also, presumably?

If it's classed as a trike,which seems likely if it can be driven on a car licence, a helmet isn't required by law.

It's because all three wheels lean like a conventional motorcycle that a helmet is required by law,and are not rigid like a conventional trike or quad

[Biospace]

Where does this tyre myth come from?

The figures you quote which suggest tyres on a BEV would last more than twice as long as an equivalent diesel are very interesting, do you have some links to the data please? Similarly for urban use wearing tyres faster than non-urban use.

The lighter and less torque the cars I have used down the years, the less they have worn their tyres. All those I know with BEVs report having to replace at least the driven tyres more often.

I asked this a couple of days ago - think you mustuv missed it, unless the data is missing...?

I can see how some drivers may wear tyres more quickly in urban conditions than not, just, but those British Gas figures (tyres on BEVs lasting more than twice as long) are quite remarkable.

[[XAP]Bob]

Urban vs non urban is very well known - if you're just eating motorway miles then the tyres just roll. They wear when they have to do work, to accelerate/brake/turn the vehicle - and that's basically constant in urban driving.

The source was British Gas and their fleet - no I don't have more detail than that, though I did note various confounding factors.

The lower torque that is *used*, then the lower the wear will be, but you also have to account for different construction of tyres depending on their designed workload.
I have only ever used anything close to max torque on a small handful of occasions. I now have an ODB reader, and CarScanner gives me some interesting statistics about each drive, I tend to find that the max power, and max torque, used isn't during acceleration, but during regen braking (and because of the regen we "brake" earlier and more smoothly than would be the case without it).

Just looking at max torque figures is a bit like saying that a Bugatti Veyron uses 78 l/100 km (which is true at top speed), so it only has a range of 80 miles.
Normal people don't use the accelerator pedal as a binary input, they only request as much torque as they need - and with no gear shifts you request a pretty constant torque level rather than pulsing that torque up as the revs climb then dropping to nothing, and having to accelerate harder to deal with the gap in power from the gear change.

We've not had to replace our driven tyres yet - just been out and checked, we still have >4mm of tread on the front and a bit more than that on the rear after ~28k miles in ~27 months (the MG is front wheel drive). That feels maybe a little bit better than I used to get looking back over old tyre replacement data, but it's not unreasonably high. The one thing it absolutely isn't is unusually low.

[UpWrong]

So these can be ridden (within the law) without a helmet also, presumably?

If it's classed as a trike,which seems likely if it can be driven on a car licence, a helmet isn't required by law.

It's because all three wheels lean like a conventional motorcycle that a helmet is required by law,and are not rigid like a conventional trike or quad

A helmet is required because the wheels aren't far enough apart. There is a specified distance at which point a helmet is no longer mandatory. That's what I read when it was launched.