BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Nearholmer wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 9:21am
I’d be very interested to hear about where Zoe batteries are available from.
Well, a quick google suggests that you can no longer get new ones as “stock items”, but breakers seem to have them, including a 52kWh one which I’m sure is even higher capacity than I was aware of when my BiL got the car; then I think the highest capacity was 40kWh.
Thanks. I hadn’t considered breakers yards and strongly suspect that changing the battery is a specialist activity. Extra capacity is nice but just restoring the original might be helpfully simpler. I recall talking to a mechanic who told me that Renault electrical parts have to be programmed to talk to each other, swopping a good new part in doesn’t always work.

Circa 11k Zoes have been sold into the UK, I’m unsure what that relatively low number will mean for replacement and spare parts supply - suppose you cross that bridge when you get to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe
Last edited by Carlton green on 29 Mar 2023, 9:43am, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
pwa
Posts: 17366
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pwa »

Carlton green wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 8:08am
Jdsk wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 9:35pm
Carlton green wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 9:29pm ...
Whatever, my greater interest is in the nearer term and so far what I’m seeing is battery pack degradation with no well used way of replacing them.
...
How much degradation are you "seeing"?

Thanks

Jonathan
As outlined and supported in posts not far above about 2% per year for a Leaf’s battery, less for a Tesla with its different chemistry and cooling. Teslas are exceedingly expensive whilst Leafs are just rather expensive, abilities to fund vary.

We tend to run our cars into their second decade, we buy at near new and then pretty much run them for as long as is practical. Degrading by those guides would see me with a range reduced by 30% of its original value; the showroom new range of a Leaf, even a 40KWh version (145 miles), is arguably constraining and a reduced range even more so. I’d like to see ways to regain and improve the battery life of older BEV’s.
https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1106/Nissan-Leaf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf
What we need, to ensure that used cars retain a value when they are re-sold to folk who can't afford new, is readily replaced batteries that mechanics can easily access and substitute in a hour or two. As already noted, manufacturers are not yet embracing this notion. Which is disappointing. Perhaps the problem is that the battery is such a high proportion of the cost of the car than putting a new one in would seem uneconomic in a used car.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Nearholmer wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 9:21am
I’d be very interested to hear about where Zoe batteries are available from.
Well, a quick google suggests that you can no longer get new ones as “stock items”,
surprising,or should I be?
but breakers seem to have them, including a 52kWh one which I’m sure is even higher capacity than I was aware of when my BiL got the car; then I think the highest capacity was 40kWh.
Would you buy a second hand battery from a breakers yard?
I suppose you'd have to if you wished to keep the car,though you'd need to find someone to fit it and then there's transport costs.
It begs the question would it be worth it?
And what to do with the old battery?
I know theoretically there's use as a "powerwall" but until there's an established and trustworthy industry built around recycling old BEV batteries what to do meanwhile?
I strongly suspect there'll many a BEV own a similar position as time goes on,at some point thw problem will be resolved one way or another,the sooner the better or there'll probably be some cowboy landfill :?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Nearholmer
Posts: 3927
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: BEVs

Post by Nearholmer »

There’s a steady market in batteries and drive-trains from EVs written-off early in their lives, even a couple of specialist firms that convert classic cars to EV using recovered Tesla components (a hobby for the rich!) so, yes, from a reputable breaker, I would.

Car breaking nowadays is well beyond the “tottering pile of rusty old bangers in a muddy yard” outfits familiar years ago, because environmental legislation makes that sort of operation off limits, and because it works for insurers, who can offload “scrappers” at a better price to firms that can get good money for the parts.

Overall though, I suspect that car makers are desperately trying to maintain the “throwaway a whole car and buy a new one” model. Someone eventually will break that line though.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 29 Mar 2023, 10:03am, edited 3 times in total.
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

In answer to PWA I think it’s a mixture of high battery cost, not wanting to get involved in spares supply, limited availability of new batteries (what batteries they have they want to put into new cars) and planned obsolescence. IIRC Nissan view a Leaf’s life as ten years - I view it as at least double that and think that green minded people should be demanding that cars are built to last several decades.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
pwa
Posts: 17366
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pwa »

Carlton green wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 9:54am In answer to PWA I think it’s a mixture of high battery cost, not wanting to get involved in spares supply, limited availability of new batteries (what batteries they have they want to put into new cars) and planned obsolescence. IIRC Nissan view a Leaf’s life as ten years - I view it as at least double that and think that green minded people should be demanding that cars are built to last several decades.
We need car manufacturers to transform themselves from, primarily, makers of new vehicles, into maintainers and upgraders of ever-lasting vehicles. Now if they did that, I'd be reaching for my wallet. Oh well, we can dream...
Nearholmer
Posts: 3927
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: BEVs

Post by Nearholmer »

It would be quite simple to design and build modular EVs that would last “forever”, let alone decades. The same is true of ICV of course, but it is genuinely more difficult in that case.

I still think someone will, at some stage, come into the market with a properly long-life, modular vehicle, probably with a term-lease, rather than own approach, coupled with “replacement with vehicle in as new condition” provision, but it would need one heck of a capital investment, with long payback period, to get the flywheel spinning, so needs a visionary with stacks of money and genuinely ‘green’ agenda.
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

I think it only a matter of time and volume before someone suitably large enters the market selling affordable bolt-in replacement battery packs and others refurbish battery packs. As for when well, for it to be less than a niche activity, is beyond my current ability to reasonably predict; my best guess is that we’re looking in the region of a decade.

Is that timescale a practically and might a young vehicle be lost to say theft or accident before then? I think that the answer to that wide question is maybe, so not a clear yes or no. If the price was right and the capability (at time of purchase) was good enough then I’d be inclined to take the risk, hoping to manage the consequences later. At the moment BEVs are, with my fiscal hat on, too expensive to justify … but if something both worthwhile and at the right price crossed my path then I’d think seriously about it: how might I possibly use what was on offer to support my needs (personal plus some family) and what its likely remaining life was. Of course, with my fiscal hat on, staying with IC engines is by far the better choice … but my fiscal hat isn’t always on.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Barrowman
Posts: 441
Joined: 8 Jan 2022, 6:35pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Barrowman »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 9:31am
francovendee wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 8:36am I've heard the same from my son in law. He loves driving the car and mostly charges up at home but can't sleep the night before a long journey because he's stressing about finding a working charge point.
Really? can't sleep?
The infrastructure isn't that bad... not by a long shot.

Nothing quite like hyperbole and FUD is there.
You obviously missed the press articles after the last bank holiday, 3 hour plus waits at the Motorway Services for a charge. Folk were getting parking tickets for stopping on site too long .
What happens if you live in a terrace house?
Wire across the pavement ? ( I have seen this )
Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Barrowman wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 12:21pmYou obviously missed the press articles after the last bank holiday, 3 hour plus waits at the Motorway Services for a charge. Folk were getting parking tickets for stopping on site too long .
I've also lived through many episodes when hydrocarbon fuel wasn't immediately available.

There aren't enough EV chargers, and the government should pull its finger out.

Barrowman wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 12:21pm What happens if you live in a terrace house?
Wire across the pavement ? ( I have seen this )
I know many EV owners who can't charge from where they live. They mostly use parking bays with chargers or shops with chargers. Seems to work fine for them.

I don't know any ICEV owners who only refuel where they live.

Jonathan
User avatar
PedallingSquares
Posts: 548
Joined: 13 Mar 2022, 11:01am

Re: BEVs

Post by PedallingSquares »

Jdsk wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 12:50pm I know many EV owners who can't charge from where they live. They mostly use parking bays with chargers or shops with chargers. Seems to work fine for them.
That's because they have to?The reason EV owners need home chargers is because the vehicles have absolutely rubbish mileage and there isn't the infrastructure in place.
Jdsk wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 12:50pm I don't know any ICEV owners who only refuel where they live.
Jonathan
That is the single most pointless statement I have ever seen.
Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

PedallingSquares wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 1:18pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 12:50pm I know many EV owners who can't charge from where they live. They mostly use parking bays with chargers or shops with chargers. Seems to work fine for them.
That's because they have to?The reason EV owners need home chargers is because the vehicles have absolutely rubbish mileage and there isn't the infrastructure in place.
I've already commented on the inadequate roll-out of chargers.

But even if that was as good as it should have been there would be many potential (!) EV owners who still wouldn't be able to charge where they live.

As above charging in parking bays and at shops seems to work well for them.

Jonathan
Biospace
Posts: 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

Nearholmer wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 8:44am TBH, I find the situation around replaceability or not of car battery packs at least mildly confusing

I had always imagined that traction battery packs would be a “workshop replaceable module”, and on some models of cars they very definitely are, so I’ve been surprised to learn that on some they are not, and I get the impression that makers/sellers are deliberately coy about it, perhaps because they don’t want to give the impression that batteries will need to be replaced, or because a truly modular system on a good body shell would make vehicle life sensibly infinite (on a “new heads and new handles” basis), thereby disrupting their business model.
If the electronics systems on BMW's i3 work reliably for decades, I would expect to see these cars on the road in the 2040s and 2050s. BMW charges close to E10,000 for a battery upgrade (but not in Britain), which I would expect to be undercut by specialists.

Prices of battery packs are still very high second hand,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363935804948
https://www.speakev.com/threads/price-f ... any.38049/
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Nearholmer wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 9:53am There’s a steady market in batteries and drive-trains from EVs written-off early in their lives, even a couple of specialist firms that convert classic cars to EV using recovered Tesla components (a hobby for the rich!) so, yes, from a reputable breaker, I would.
I've no doubt there are many BEV parts for sale motors etc,but at what cost especially for their batteries,if you can't buy new due to built in obsolescence s/h batteries will cost a fortune I should think,and it wouldn't surprise me at all if a Chinese business saw the demand and jumped on it with poor quality goods such as is the same with other rechargeable batteries that don't last too long and can blow up on charging

The Tesla recyclers are as you say richman's hobbists.

Car breaking nowadays is well beyond the “tottering pile of rusty old bangers in a muddy yard” outfits familiar years ago, because environmental legislation makes that sort of operation off limits, and because it works for insurers, who can offload “scrappers” at a better price to firms that can get good money for the parts.
I'm well aware of that fact.
Overall though, I suspect that car makers are desperately trying to maintain the “throwaway a whole car and buy a new one” model.
Nowt new there then,it's the way capitalism works
Someone eventually will break that line though
A BEV Jowett Javlin perhaps :wink:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Biospace wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 1:35pm .......Prices of battery packs are still very high second hand,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363935804948
Even half that price is bloomin' expensive for a s/h battery* plus fitting(£300 to £500?) to shellout on a 10year old(?) car that's probably only worth the cost of the new s/h battery after fitting and the buyer of the battery having no idea of how much and what kind use and charging stats it's had.

As I've posted up thread I'm sure all these things will be resolved and system found in the fullness of time but until then it's all a bit up in the air and chance it

*I don't know how much/if the owner would get something for the old dud battery or if it'd be a nightmare to dispose of.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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