BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

Carlton green wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 8:42am
pete75 wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 8:39am
Jdsk wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 8:24am
In order to reduce the environmental damage we need to switch the sale of new cars from ICEs to EVs. The earlier that transition occurs the better.

Factors that will encourage switching include the charging infrastructure and the perceived cost to the switcher. The latter means that subsidies may be appropriate and that perceived certainty of future costs should be high.

This is not something that should be left to individuals: the government should actively and consistently intervene.

After the transition the externalities should be paid in full.

Jonathan
There are already big subsidies available. My wife was talking to her accountant about cars and was told her that if she bought a new electric car she could offset 100% of the cost against her tax bill in the year purchased. This would knock over 40% off the purchase price.
How gross is that !!! Money which should be going into the Treasury to pay for the support of society is creamed off, withheld, by sleight of hand.
It's not done by sleight of hand but by Inland Revenue regulations - presumably set by the Treasury.

This what the revenue say https://www.gov.uk/capital-allowances/f ... allowances

"What qualifies
You can claim ‘enhanced capital allowances’ (a type of 100% first year allowance) for the following equipment, which must be new and unused:

Electric cars and cars with zero CO2 emissions
plant and machinery for gas refuelling stations, for example storage tanks, pumps
gas, biogas and hydrogen refuelling equipment
zero-emission goods vehicles
equipment for electric vehicle charging points
plant and machinery for use in a freeport tax site, if you’re a company "
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Nearholmer
Posts: 3930
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: BEVs

Post by Nearholmer »

I think I detect a faint air of “clinging to the doorposts” in some of this thread, people reluctant to let go of the ICV paradigm, which is about a lot more than just what fuel a car uses.

No surprise really, because people who are now in later adulthood have, for the most part, grown-up with the double-edged sword of personal hyper-mobility, lived through the period during which the car went from being every boys dream, to practically universal, to being a bit of a bl@@dy nuisance at multiple levels, and we are now completely habituated to a world in which “everything” has been shaped by that.

A few more graphs:
FC2C34EC-F802-4308-B84E-8C7C0F949B91.jpeg
90419610-E4A4-4104-8C68-8CF108634243.jpeg
DE1480F7-31FD-4FB3-937A-0EA7A047F86E.jpeg
Change, even relatively small change like having to think ahead a bit about refuelling during those statistically rare long trips, always comes hard for the habituated. The rising generations won’t find it hard, they’re more likely to think about old blokes reminiscing about ICVs in much the same way that most people now think about old blokes reminiscing about steam trains, or bikes with 5-speed blocks: quaint and irrelevant. And, I say that as a bloke who can and will reminisce about all three to some degree.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 17 Mar 2023, 10:39am, edited 1 time in total.
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

reohn2 wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 1:03am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 12:23am Really - yes.
Depends how many minutes... a modern car can charge up three hours worth of fuel in ten minutes, just enough time for a loo break
Only if I'm prepared to spend £30k+ on the car in the first place, which I'm not because a BEV won't serve my driving mileage
Who said anything about spending £30k+ if you live at the tail end of vehicle lifetime (which you frankly admit that you do) then you're not going to get a modern EV for several years yet.
But to claim that no BEV can charge in "minutes" is plain wrong.
- and the cybertruck (which is frankly absurd) should be able to do three times that
You've lost me,what's a cybertruck
Massively oversized tesla pickup truck - will have Megawatt charging capability (which is somewhat ridiculous)
But 90+% of the miles I do take no time to charge at all - no diversion to a smelly dirty garage
But it would me unless the vehicle is worth the initial outlay and will do 250miles between charges.
What are these smelly garages you speak of?
Generally I fill up every 700+miles at quite plesent service stations usually with convenience store attached should I need to use it.
I've never been to a petrol station that doesn't smell of petrol.
I fill up from the comfort of my own bed... but 250 miles between charges is quite reasonable - there are 88 vehicles with a range over 250 miles on the ev database - from £40k new. I know you don't want to buy a new car, but for comparison the bottom of the line SMax is £38k.
If you leave a fully charged car plugged in at a public charger then it won't do anything... it can't, your battery is already full.
My point was that peoplemwho leave their car plugged in at a charging station cause queues of other BEVs waiting to use the charger,something that does happen quite a bit or so I'm told.
Actually pretty rare, obviously when it happens then it gets commented on - but it is rare.
That's the thing, you conveniently forget about the times when petrol stations have run out of fuel, or have queues, or that time when you accidentally put petrol in a diesel tank. It's not wilful self deception, you're just used to those failure modes, how often do you talk about when you just drive into a petrol station and filled up? Never - same way I don't talk about the times when I just drive up to a charger and use it... because it's a non event - and it's almost always a non event.
There are far more public charge locations than petrol stations

Do they all work and are they only used form the same time as a fuel pump
I don't understand the question - there are ~8k petrol stations in the UK and ~23k charging locations, with over 60k connectors across 39k devices.
Some of those devices will, like a petrol pump, only be able to use one of their connectors at a time - others can use both.
Do they all work 100% of the time... depends which ones you use - AC chargers (the majority) are very reliable, and the better networks (MFG, instavolt) are utterly reliable,
- I recently took a trip to London, I parked up, plugged in and then went and visited the natural history museum to see Hope.
I came out after a few hours and the car was nearly full again - parking and charging paid for in the same transaction, no hassle, no fuss - first charger I visited (I had four alternatives within about 100 yards of the museum, and a couple of others only a stones throw further. All looked up the day before.)
Ah! London now I see,we don't all live or visit big cities and IMHO private cars,other than a very few exceptions,shouldn't be allowed in cities.BTW I thought you said BEVs only took a 10minutes to charge up :?
It's a <i>[rude word removed]</i> pain to take a wheelchair on the tube, so I drive in.
Museums are really good places to visit, and the Exhibition road area is stuffed full of them after the great exhibition.
It took me less than a minute to charge up - I just plugged in and carried on with what I was doing. The street side charger I used was an AC (i.e. only 28mph) charger, so the few hours I was there was plenty to replenish the charge.
If you're going to throw stones at BEVs you really do need to understand the technology a little better.
No, most people don't want to keep a can of flammable liquid loose in the boot, and most of the people I know who are like that aren't mechanically sympathetic, so use of said can would be "interesting
The interesting thing is that they needn't carry a can of fuel due to service stations are so prolific.
All my motoring life I've driven with anything upto 70ltres of flammable liquid somewhere on the vehicle,innthe fuel tank,and on every motorcycle I've owned I've ridden with anything upto 25ltres of flammable liquid inbetween my legs right over the top of the engine,never had any problems with that either and I've fell off a couple of times :shock:
Never had a problem
Oh, so they don't need to carry a can in the boot? You just said they did.
There is a massive difference between a dedicated fuel tank and a loose can of fuel.
Service stations are less prolific than charging stations - there are approximately 8 thousand in the country. Every building can be a charging station.

All that said I'm still not convinced about BEVs and doubt I will be,but never say never eh? :wink:
Have you ever actually used one?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Nearholmer wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 9:46am I think I detect a faint air of “clinging to the doorposts” in some of this thread, people reluctant to let go of the ICV paradigm, which is about a lot more than just what fuel a car uses.
Very much so...

That middle graph would have been so much more interesting if the "light goods" vehicles had been at the bottom...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: BEVs

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 8:27am The best calculator that I have found so far for carbon dioxide emission, allows for manufacturing and use, selection of mileage, source of electricity, and regional factors:
https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/ ... nization=0

Jonathan
Great tool, but gives significantly different assessment to other analyses I've seen which suggest much bigger BEV advantages.

So not sure what to make of the output.

eg https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-h ... te-change/
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: BEVs

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Nearholmer wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 9:46am I think I detect a faint air of “clinging to the doorposts” in some of this thread, people reluctant to let go of the ICV paradigm, which is about a lot more than just what fuel a car uses.

There's a lot of searching for facts to back up preconceived ideas - classic confirmation bias.

I think this issue is also wrapped up with the wider use of cars - it's perfectly possible for EVs to be both better than ICE vehicles *and* really bad for the environment, and separating the emotions associated with those is hard.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

Nearholmer wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 9:46am Change, even relatively small change like having to think ahead a bit about refuelling during those statistically rare long trips, always comes hard for the habituated. The rising generations won’t find it hard, they’re more likely to think about old blokes reminiscing about ICVs in much the same way that most people now think about old blokes reminiscing about steam trains, or bikes with 5-speed blocks: quaint and irrelevant. And, I say that as a bloke who can and will reminisce about all three to some degree.
"What, cars used to set fire to flammable liquid to make them move? :shock: "

It's interesting to note in the early 20th century most cars were steam or electric. There were garages in London specialising in battery swaps and recharging - when discharged, your battery was swapped out for another one, or they rented out a car for a day or two. The few cars with internal combustion engines were loud, smelly, rough-running and required skill to start and run.

So what changed? The electric starter motor in 1912 played its part, but cars with ICes were still rough, smelly and unreliable compared with steam or electricity. By the 1920s steam cars were fast as well as reliable.

I've read that the oil business in the US could see a bleak future as people were moving from oil lamps to electric and realised if they could supply more remote areas with fuel storage tanks and 'filling stations', the cars with ICes could travel much greater distances. They priced the fuel so it made for the cheapest form of transport; most didn't look back for a century.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 10:43am
Jdsk wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 8:27am The best calculator that I have found so far for carbon dioxide emission, allows for manufacturing and use, selection of mileage, source of electricity, and regional factors:
https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/ ... nization=0

Jonathan
Great tool, but gives significantly different assessment to other analyses I've seen which suggest much bigger BEV advantages.

So not sure what to make of the output.

eg https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-h ... te-change/
I noted the climobil data looked slightly less in favour of BEVs than some I've seen, I posted the sources they cite (which I've copied below), I haven't had time as yet to trawl through them.

Note the graphics posted up were a direct comparison of two Golfs, many comparisons take an average of ICEvs and BEVs, so including all the Range Rovers and other powerful, heavy and inefficient vehicles. Using Grid data which is only two or three years older will affect the data.

Here are some charts from the carbonbrief site you link, average ICEv/Prius vs 2019 Leaf, Tesla 3 (Asian sourced batteries) and Tesla 3 (US sourced batteries).

Screenshot 2023-03-17 at 13.31.08.png
Screenshot 2023-03-17 at 13.30.53.png
Screenshot 2023-03-17 at 13.41.23.png


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps ... -2016-prov
https://theicct.org/real-world-vehicle- ... time-high/
https://www.ivl.se/download/18.59222817 ... ies%20.pdf
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5119302715
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... jiec.12072
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 ... 1/5/054010
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: BEVs

Post by Stevek76 »

Jdsk wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 8:17am
wheelyhappy99 wrote: 16 Mar 2023, 11:11pm
Incidentally, talking about fuel, it’s about time that BEV’s paid tax on their fuel, and VED too in line with new ICE vehicles - a penalty for excess weight would be fair too as damage to roads is a function of weight. If someone can afford big bucks for an electric car then they can afford to pay their taxes and not evade social contributions.
Perhaps look up some information about vehicle types and road degredation. IIRC cars of any size are pretty inconsequential, HGVs responsible for most, artic tractor units with just two axles by far the most damaging. All to do with axle weight apparently.
...
This is important.

The fourth power law:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law
and its implications for what is doing most of the damage.

And of course distribution of energy by an electrical grid rather than chemical fuel tankers gets those loads off the roads.

Jonathan
On well engineered modern highways sure. On urban streets with old foundations the threshold for damage is quite a bit lower and the impact of modern SUV tanks is fairly obvious (see also the damage to footways)

As for EVs, they absolutely should be paying their fair share of externalities. There's more than enough room here to still have them attractive over ICEs whilst also rebalancing their attractiveness against other modes, reality is cost of driving needs to go up and be better targetted.

I suspect the tools of road user charging to do this may be more likely than thought, the treasury is going to get increasingly fussy over the decreasing fuel tax/VED revenues. Also on the local level we've now had cambridge break cover on congestion charging.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Nearholmer
Posts: 3930
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: BEVs

Post by Nearholmer »

Once the news that ICVs are really, really on the way out lodges properly, and the number of them in service starts to decline significantly, in short once we’re past the tipping point, I should imagine that EVs will have to start bearing their costs, although it’s very questionable whether private motoring has ever properly borne its costs, a lot depending upon how you value pollution in general, and land-take.
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

As for EVs, they absolutely should be paying their fair share of externalities. There's more than enough room here to still have them attractive over ICEs whilst also rebalancing their attractiveness against other modes, reality is cost of driving needs to go up and be better targeted.
Yes, the cost of motoring really isn’t what it should be but how does one equitably measure it and then manage consequences. Access to travel surely should not be by cheque book and should be within the scope of nearly all of us. If what we’re concerned about is pollution then we might have gone OTT with regard to IC engines, particularly those in small vehicles, and turned a blind eye to the manufacture and (excessive) weight of BEV’s.

Are BEV’s a good thing? Well small ones (say the size of a Corsa) might be, but SUV’s of any power should be off of the road. BEM’s are typically just another form of monster on the road; oversized, overpriced and making profits for somebody regardless of the real externalities.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pwa »

And however we feel about this as individuals, it looks as though the supply of new petrol and diesel cars (including hybrids) will cease in the next decade and a bit. About twelve years from now, anyone wanting to buy a new car will have no choice in the matter. It will be electric, whether we like it or not.

Our own car will be getting a bit long in the tooth by then, so we are on target to become electric car users at about that time. My hope and expectation is that prices (relative to income) will have eased a bit, range will be a bit longer on the more affordable versions that at present, and charge points will be abundant all over the UK. To me a car is just a tool, and I don't have any emotional attachment to this or that technology. So long as it gets me where I need to be without too much fuss.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 5:29pm And however we feel about this as individuals, it looks as though the supply of new petrol and diesel cars (including hybrids) will cease in the next decade and a bit. About twelve years from now, anyone wanting to buy a new car will have no choice in the matter. It will be electric, whether we like it or not.

Our own car will be getting a bit long in the tooth by then, so we are on target to become electric car users at about that time. My hope and expectation is that prices (relative to income) will have eased a bit, range will be a bit longer on the more affordable versions that at present, and charge points will be abundant all over the UK. To me a car is just a tool, and I don't have any emotional attachment to this or that technology. So long as it gets me where I need to be without too much fuss.
There are also persistant rumours that there will soon be great breakthroughs in battery technology, lower weight, higher power capacity, gretaer longevity etc. You're probably wise to wait. If, as doesn't seem unlikley, there's a big improvement in battery technology in the near future, current BEVs will lose much value quickly.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Mark R
Posts: 643
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Mark R »

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
are quiet and smooth
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
can supply energy to the home and Grid
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
That list of options is silly.

Its all about toxic exhaust emissions isn;t it?

BEVs don't solve any of the other problems with car use - congestion, resource use, obesity etc........but they do go a long wat to dealing with the toxic exhaust emission problem.

The diesel lovers on here need to face reality - once your dieselmotor is 10 or 15 years old with 100,000 odd miles it becomes massively polluting - belching carcinogenic filth which everyone else, including vulnerable children, have to breathe. The junk has no place on the roads of a civilised country, not least because it makes cycling and walking a lot less healthy and pleasant than it should be.

The emissions of BEVs on the other hand do not increase as the vehicle ages - and this is the obvious advantage of BEVs
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: BEVs

Post by roubaixtuesday »

pete75 wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 5:50pm There are also persistant rumours that there will soon be great breakthroughs in battery technology, lower weight, higher power capacity, gretaer longevity etc. .
Very unlikely to be achieved suddenly in a scalable way.

If it was on the way soon, you'd see it demonstrated already
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