BEVs

[[XAP]Bob]

I think this issue is also wrapped up with the wider use of cars - it's perfectly possible for EVs to be both better than ICE vehicles *and* really bad for the environment, and separating the emotions associated with those is hard.

Yes - the fight is generally against letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[Jdsk]

As I have said before, whilst I have a driveway and the ability tohave a charging point at home, I know of numerous communities where most houses are in terraces, without private parking, and current Government policy seems to be destined to leave them high and dry when the changeover happens. I am concerned that the Government and local planners are not working like the clappers to find charging solutions that work in all communities, rather than just those where people are lucky enough to have their own plot of land to charge on.

Yes. As above I'd like to see much stronger planning for the transition.

But we can see examples of most of the solutions for charging away from home up and running somewhere. Just not enough of them.

Oxford has several public roadside chargers and a very interesting installation at one of the Park and Ride sites:
https://www.oxford.gov.uk/news/article/ ... hub_oxford

A member of my family lives in Newham, can't charge at home, and has no problem charging at public roadside chargers and supermarkets.

Jonathan

[[XAP]Bob]

And however we feel about this as individuals, it looks as though the supply of new petrol and diesel cars (including hybrids) will cease in the next decade and a bit. About twelve years from now, anyone wanting to buy a new car will have no choice in the matter. It will be electric, whether we like it or not.

Our own car will be getting a bit long in the tooth by then, so we are on target to become electric car users at about that time. My hope and expectation is that prices (relative to income) will have eased a bit, range will be a bit longer on the more affordable versions that at present, and charge points will be abundant all over the UK. To me a car is just a tool, and I don't have any emotional attachment to this or that technology. So long as it gets me where I need to be without too much fuss.

There are also persistant rumours that there will soon be great breakthroughs in battery technology, lower weight, higher power capacity, gretaer longevity etc. You're probably wise to wait. If, as doesn't seem unlikley, there's a big improvement in battery technology in the near future, current BEVs will lose much value quickly.

There will be breakthroughs, and there are various avenues which look promising... the value of an EV won't suddenly plummet though.
The time taken to scale technology is still measured in significant numbers of years - indeed many of the really interesting technologies are looking at hybrid batteries - i.e. a relatively small LFP, with a larger Na based battery - cruising power is generally drawn from the Na battery, whilst the LFP is there to cover spikes in demand (whether input or output demand)

[[XAP]Bob]

As I have said before, whilst I have a driveway and the ability tohave a charging point at home, I know of numerous communities where most houses are in terraces, without private parking, and current Government policy seems to be destined to leave them high and dry when the changeover happens. I am concerned that the Government and local planners are not working like the clappers to find charging solutions that work in all communities, rather than just those where people are lucky enough to have their own plot of land to charge on.

Yes. As above I'd like to see much stronger planning for the transition.

But we can see examples of most of the solutions for charging away from home up and running somewhere. Just not enough of them.

Oxford has several public roadside chargers and a very interesting installation at one of the Park and Ride sites:
https://www.oxford.gov.uk/news/article/ ... hub_oxford

A member of my family lives in Newham, can't charge at home, and has no problem charging at public roadside chargers and supermarkets.

Jonathan

There is no reason road side parking can't have community charging facilities... And community charging can be just that, doesn't need to be large profit driven.

[Carlton green]

I think reohn2's post sums the situation up for many people. Cost and practicality for them rules out the EV. Some get all defensive about EV's but they aren't the solution for everyone.
I own up to not having driven a BEV but travelled many times in my son in law's one. It's a very nice car and he loves it. he does a daily 15 mile journey into London. It's only when he has to go on longer journeys that his anxiety sets in. He's not yet run out of juice but was down to 10 mile one time when his planned 'top up' point wasn't working.

Surely that problem, which does exist because I have heard it from other people who use EVs, is something that will rapidly diminish as infrastructure expands with EV use. I'd be worried about it if I were planning to buy an EV now, but I don't anticipate it being a concern further down the line.

I think it’s a case of wait several years and then see. Regardless of what we personally think - whether pro or anti - at some point the actions of government will kick in. There’s a possibility of a U turn and some continued supply of of ICE cars in the UK, but such a possibility is remote - remote things do happen - so plan on having no other option but to go BEV at some point. It’s almost certainly a case of like it or lump it.

For me it will be purely pragmatic, unless I have an earlier lucky break I’ll put off buying another car until I have to buy a replacement and at that time I’ll look at what’s available in both power types and pick from them whilst investing as little as is practical. No one has a reliable and good crystal ball - who’d have thought we’d have Truss for a PM - so it’s a case of delaying the decision and watching to see how things unfold - working with things as they are rather than as we might wish them to be.

[Carlton green]

I think this issue is also wrapped up with the wider use of cars - it's perfectly possible for EVs to be both better than ICE vehicles *and* really bad for the environment, and separating the emotions associated with those is hard.

Yes - the fight is generally against letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Yes, perfection is the enemy of good. On the other hand BEV are not necessarily good and ICV’s are not necessarily bad, there’s rather too much polarisation.

[Carlton green]

I feel sure that you know how flawed that simple stance is

I didn’t, but I live and learn.

Here there is no bussing within the unitary authority area except to get children from outlying villages into the city, and a small number of children to grammar school miles away, because there is some agreement going back years to before comprehensives were introduced that a few places will be available in the next local authority area. The vast majority of secondary pupils walk or cycle to school, but some parents opt for schools a bit further across the city, in which case the children use the ordinary local buses.

The next authority over is still grammar, and has a much larger rural area, so they have a lot more bussing.

I wasn’t aware that bussing occurred between towns with comprehensives ….. it didn’t where I grew, let alone where I live now.

Who’d have thought it, very different practices in different places. To be fair we all tend to think that everyone else's experiences match ours so in a way I’m (misguidedly) surprised that yours are different.

If we in this country were serious about vehicle pollution then we could massively reduce it without BEVs. Over the lockdown the roads were empty and folk got on with life, it was tough but we did it, life was temporarily restructured. Similarly we could curtail road use and both demand that folk had essential reason to use their motor vehicle and find equitable ways to cap personal mileages. So in broad terms: work either from on near home, be educated locally or on-line, shop near home, holiday near home and use public transport. With regard to daily activities such as work and education I believe that a green transport plan should be required by all the parties involved, it will be painful but so are the results of pollution (in its many forms).

[Jdsk]

...
If we in this country were serious about vehicle pollution then we could massively reduce it without BEVs. Over the lockdown the roads were empty and folk got on with life, it was tough but we did it, life was temporarily restructured. Similarly we could curtail road use and both demand that folk had essential reason to use their motor vehicle and find equitable ways to cap personal mileages. So in broad terms: work either from on near home, be educated locally or on-line, shop near home, holiday near home and use public transport. With regard to daily activities such as work and education I believe that a green transport plan should be required by all the parties involved, it will be painful but so are the results of pollution (in its many forms).

There's too much important stuff there for this thread. It deserves one of its own:
viewtopic.php?t=155477

Jonathan

[pete75]

And however we feel about this as individuals, it looks as though the supply of new petrol and diesel cars (including hybrids) will cease in the next decade and a bit. About twelve years from now, anyone wanting to buy a new car will have no choice in the matter. It will be electric, whether we like it or not.

Our own car will be getting a bit long in the tooth by then, so we are on target to become electric car users at about that time. My hope and expectation is that prices (relative to income) will have eased a bit, range will be a bit longer on the more affordable versions that at present, and charge points will be abundant all over the UK. To me a car is just a tool, and I don't have any emotional attachment to this or that technology. So long as it gets me where I need to be without too much fuss.

There are also persistant rumours that there will soon be great breakthroughs in battery technology, lower weight, higher power capacity, gretaer longevity etc. You're probably wise to wait. If, as doesn't seem unlikley, there's a big improvement in battery technology in the near future, current BEVs will lose much value quickly.

There will be breakthroughs, and there are various avenues which look promising... the value of an EV won't suddenly plummet though.
The time taken to scale technology is still measured in significant numbers of years - indeed many of the really interesting technologies are looking at hybrid batteries - i.e. a relatively small LFP, with a larger Na based battery - cruising power is generally drawn from the Na battery, whilst the LFP is there to cover spikes in demand (whether input or output demand)

If battery technology changes greatly, and for the better then vehicles running on what becomes obsolescent technology will lose a lot of value.

[pete75]

The smelliest diesel vehicles around here tend to be the school buses that clog the streets twice daily, so I'm blaming the kids for damaging my lungs. I'll get my coat......

You make a good point about school buses being perhaps the filthiest vehicles of all. It certainly emphasises the point about diesel engines becoming massively polluting once they have significant wear and tear......and the toxic emissions from an Electric bus? Would they increase as the vehicle got older?

Eh? The buses used to take children to school here are the same used by the bus company for it's normal services. Why should this produce more pollution on a school run than on a service route?

[Mark R]

Eh? The buses used to take children to school here are the same used by the bus company for it's normal services. Why should this produce more pollution on a school run than on a service route?

I'd suggest your experience is atypical. I reckon most people can relate to the problem of school buses belching heinous levels of carcinogenic filth- it is simply the nature of diesel engines as they age. All of your nice clean EURO6 diesels will be tomorrow's mingers stenching the place up. The biggest irony where I live is the PSV known as the "Enviro400" .....cancer on wheels would be a better name for it

[Stevek76]

Yes, the cost of motoring really isn’t what it should be but how does one equitably measure it and then manage consequences. Access to travel surely should not be by cheque book and should be within the scope of nearly all of us.

Well it's already outside of the scope of the poorest who can't afford cars, aren't confident to cycle in traffic and have to put up with a bus service that gets ever worse and the cost of which continues to exceed inflation. Gps tracking in cars is now prevalent enough that road user charging isn't unfeasible and costs of travel can be far better linked to externalities - i.e. larger/heavier/more polluting vehicles charged more, urban areas & peak times charged higher. Locally councils could already do plenty from congestion charges (again can be differentiated by vehicle size) to removal of free/heavily subsidised parking -the fact that some councils charge less for a residents parking permit for an EV then they charge for a bike hanger space is an excellent example of EVs being very over subsidized.

[pwa]

Yes, the cost of motoring really isn’t what it should be but how does one equitably measure it and then manage consequences. Access to travel surely should not be by cheque book and should be within the scope of nearly all of us.

Well it's already outside of the scope of the poorest who can't afford cars, aren't confident to cycle in traffic and have to put up with a bus service that gets ever worse and the cost of which continues to exceed inflation. Gps tracking in cars is now prevalent enough that road user charging isn't unfeasible and costs of travel can be far better linked to externalities - i.e. larger/heavier/more polluting vehicles charged more, urban areas & peak times charged higher. Locally councils could already do plenty from congestion charges (again can be differentiated by vehicle size) to removal of free/heavily subsidised parking -the fact that some councils charge less for a residents parking permit for an EV then they charge for a bike hanger space is an excellent example of EVs being very over subsidized.

The problem with road charging is that it disciplines use by the less well off, whilst just making the roads less congested for the wealthy.

[pete75]

Eh? The buses used to take children to school here are the same used by the bus company for it's normal services. Why should this produce more pollution on a school run than on a service route?

I'd suggest your experience is atypical. I reckon most people can relate to the problem of school buses belching heinous levels of carcinogenic filth- it is simply the nature of diesel engines as they age. All of your nice clean EURO6 diesels will be tomorrow's mingers stenching the place up. The biggest irony where I live is the PSV known as the "Enviro400" .....cancer on wheels would be a better name for it

I thought it's only in the USA where they have a special type of bus for school transport. All the school buses I've seen here appear to be the usual type used on most bus service routes.
The biggest culprit for increasing diesel engine emissions is a faulty injection system. Providing this and the exhaust system, including any DPF, is maintained in good order there's no reason why emissions should increase greatly with age.

[Mark R]

Providing this and the exhaust system, including any DPF, is maintained in good order there's no reason why emissions should increase greatly with age.
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Sorry but this is utter bunkum, clearly evidenced by the fact that pretty much all older diesels from cars to trucks to tractors to buses are now filthy and stinking.