BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

Nearholmer
Posts: 3927
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: BEVs

Post by Nearholmer »

so why should they have to change?
How about: because fossil fuel use in cars is a major contributor to climate alteration, while EVs can accept energy from multiple sources of generation, including ones that don’t bngger-up the climate?

The advantage that you seek is a reduced likelihood of even more serious climate-change-driven unpleasantness.

Which isn’t to say, as per my previous, that I don’t agree with you that the first-cost of EVs is an obstacle: it is. Perversely, the less we all drive, and annual mileage was falling well before the pandemic, the bigger the first-cost problem is, because it means that payback by fuel cost differential takes longer. Maybe the solution is to tax ICVs out of existence quicker by adding climate adaptation tariffs on top of all the other taxes. (That isn’t a serious suggestion, because it poses too many questions about not further disadvantaging the less well off, but TBH, those questions are already waiting in the wings)
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

Biospace wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 2:51pm

The point is a BEV offers no real advantages over a diesel vehicle and several disadvantages like cost and range.
I would disagree with no real advantages, compared even with the simplest diesel from the early 1990s which requires nothing more than fuel to run, an electric motor and battery is mechanically beautifully simple.

Providing a battery lasts for as long as a car (say 200,000 miles) this simplicity means less repair costs, less maintenance costs, a smooth and near silent 'engine' and high levels of reliability, if the supply of electricity is reliable.

As well as simplicity, the electric motor provides maximum torque from 0 revs and the rev range is typically sufficient to not need a gearbox. So even more simplicity, lack of maintenance and silence. And easy, rapid acceleration from rest.

The EM is around 90% efficient, compared with a typical 20-40% for the ICE. Included in the cost of your 'fuel' are the transmission losses and the cost of burning fossil fuel to make it. With an ICEv you buy your fuel then convert its energy with huge losses. Additionally, electricity is barely taxed compared with petrol and diesel.

Unless you're frequently using a vehicle intensively, the advantages aroe across the board, with the notable exception of being able to drive for 400 miles or more without stopping.
Running costs for a BEV are higher than for a diesel car according to the RAC, though lower than for petrol. Our diesel cars have proved 100% reliable. Service cost for my diesel Skoda estate is usually about £25 and a bit of my time though can be up to £50 depending on what filters need changing. I suspect service costs for an electric car would be higher because I'd probably have to pay someone to do it.
If the simplicity of an electric vehicle resulted in a lower price to match that simplicity you'd have a point. It does not though, that simplicity comes at a price premium. The same with the efficiency you describe. Unless it transfers into lower costs it's irrelevant.

Electricity for cars is barely taxed compared to fuel at present, but who knows how long this will last. I have a wall charger at home for our diesel PHEV. It connected to the web automatically. I've stopped this but I wonder if the government will insist on future chargers being manufactured with a permanent connection, like smart meters, so they can tax even even home charging.

Are electric vehicles more reliable? In my experience the most common cause of failure in an ICE vehicle is the electrical system.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

Nearholmer wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 2:55pm
so why should they have to change?
How about: because fossil fuel use in cars is a major contributor to climate alteration, while EVs can accept energy from multiple sources of generation, including ones that don’t bngger-up the climate?

The advantage that you seek is a reduced likelihood of even more serious climate-change-driven unpleasantness.

Which isn’t to say, as per my previous, that I don’t agree with you that the first-cost of EVs is an obstacle: it is. Perversely, the less we all drive, and annual mileage was falling well before the pandemic, the bigger the first-cost problem is, because it means that payback by fuel cost differential takes longer. Maybe the solution is to tax ICVs out of existence quicker by adding climate adaptation tariffs on top of all the other taxes. (That isn’t a serious suggestion, because it poses too many questions about not further disadvantaging the less well off, but TBH, those questions are already waiting in the wings)


According to the Secretary-General of the United Nations "The climate crisis has passed the point of no return — even though we had plenty of warning and could have acted earlier. ". Unless he doesn't know what he's talking about, the time we could have done something to stop it has passed.

Politicians like people to vote for them. Your tax suggestion would be a vote loser for whoever put those policies in a manifesto.

The last time there was a government that gave a damn about the less well off was in the seventies. Other than lip-service that won't change any time soon, if ever.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Nearholmer
Posts: 3927
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: BEVs

Post by Nearholmer »

According to the Secretary-General of the United Nations "The climate crisis has passed the point of no return — even though we had plenty of warning and could have acted earlier. "
Here’s the full text of what he said https://press.un.org/en/2022/sgsm21173.doc.htm

Nowhere in it that I can find does he say “give up; we’re all doomed anyway, so there’s no point bothering”

We are in a perfect position to make matters a lot worse, or only a little bit worse. Personally, I’m not keen for my kids to grow up into a world any worse than it will be given full effort.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

pete75 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 3:20pm
Biospace wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 2:51pm

The point is a BEV offers no real advantages over a diesel vehicle and several disadvantages like cost and range.
I would disagree with no real advantages, compared even with the simplest diesel from the early 1990s which requires nothing more than fuel to run, an electric motor and battery is mechanically beautifully simple.

Providing a battery lasts for as long as a car (say 200,000 miles) this simplicity means less repair costs, less maintenance costs, a smooth and near silent 'engine' and high levels of reliability, if the supply of electricity is reliable.

As well as simplicity, the electric motor provides maximum torque from 0 revs and the rev range is typically sufficient to not need a gearbox. So even more simplicity, lack of maintenance and silence. And easy, rapid acceleration from rest.

The EM is around 90% efficient, compared with a typical 20-40% for the ICE. Included in the cost of your 'fuel' are the transmission losses and the cost of burning fossil fuel to make it. With an ICEv you buy your fuel then convert its energy with huge losses. Additionally, electricity is barely taxed compared with petrol and diesel.

Unless you're frequently using a vehicle intensively, the advantages aroe across the board, with the notable exception of being able to drive for 400 miles or more without stopping.
Running costs for a BEV are higher than for a diesel car according to the RAC, though lower than for petrol. Our diesel cars have proved 100% reliable. Service cost for my diesel Skoda estate is usually about £25 and a bit of my time though can be up to £50 depending on what filters need changing. I suspect service costs for an electric car would be higher because I'd probably have to pay someone to do it.
If the simplicity of an electric vehicle resulted in a lower price to match that simplicity you'd have a point. It does not though, that simplicity comes at a price premium. The same with the efficiency you describe. Unless it transfers into lower costs it's irrelevant.

Electricity for cars is barely taxed compared to fuel at present, but who knows how long this will last. I have a wall charger at home for our diesel PHEV. It connected to the web automatically. I've stopped this but I wonder if the government will insist on future chargers being manufactured with a permanent connection, like smart meters, so they can tax even even home charging.

Are electric vehicles more reliable? In my experience the most common cause of failure in an ICE vehicle is the electrical system.
The RAC isn't an organisation I would place much trust in, an article linked elsewhere (twice!) on this forum was terribly written and appeared to try to mislead, although I think it was simply an over-enthusiastic, young EV enthusiast academic with little idea of how to write clearly without his own thoughts clouding an article.

Service costs for an engine are oil and filters, with a BEV I'd expect the reduction gear and differential oil would be 'filled for life' as with modern conventional gearboxes, and no more awkward to change if thought necessary. Battery cooling systems may need fresh antifreeze every five or six years, again I can't see why this should be more awkward, just different. Some Leafs appears to cool with air. The rest of the car will be very similar - brakes, suspension and cabin ventilation system filter(s), wipers etc.

I suspect your talkative charger is very much the way forwards - a dealership was insistent on a friend organising a reliable mobile phone signal before they would install the free charger unit for his EV. Many cars are already constantly online as it is, who knows what is being communicated?
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

pete75 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 3:20pm Running costs for a BEV are higher than for a diesel car according to the RAC, though lower than for petrol.
No - not even close. What are your assumptions here, that you always run from the most expensive DC chargers in the country for all your mileage?
What utter tripe.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 12:43pm "I don't believe cars are the answer"
Whilst there will always be a small proportion of people for whom a car is the most suitable, rather than just the most convenient, means of transport... you're right, in the vast majority of cases they aren't the correct answer - but at the moment they're what is being chosen, and BEVs offer a substantial reduction in harm both to the global environment and more particularly to those in their immediate vicinity.
I agree but at risk of repeating myself,they don't work for me and compared to ICEV are far too expensive for me.
If your complaint is that there aren't enough chargers... well there are hundreds of millions of charge points all over the country... every three pin socket you see is a charge point.
The average UK car does 20 miles a day, thats about 5kWh of electrons, or under two hours plugged into the slowest charger versions we have - it's only 3.5 hours at the slowest rate the Type2 standard supports.
I know - you were complaining about the lack of DC charge points. There are nearly five thousand rapid charge locations - and well over thirty thousand AC chargers, which is encouraging, particularly since the majority of people very rarely need to use public charging.
Which can work for a lot of people,I've no argument with that if DC chargers are available but they aren't always,but I'm arguing from a personal POV,my motoring is double the average and when the car is in use it'll be between 200 and 300miles in a day,the shortest use it does is a once a week supermarket trip but mainly it's days out plus caravan towing duties.
BTW my car never goes into a city and only ever goes into a town when absolutely necessary which isn't very often.
Having recently filled a car up with fossil fuels I was reminded just how unpleasant an experience it is - and people think nothing of it, and won't hear the process criticised because it's what they've internalised as "normal".
Sorry but I have to disagree with you there,filling my car up with diesel isn't an unpleasant experience,it's not smelly and the fuel stations I use certainly aren't dirty.

As I've posted before and stress again,if a BEV worked for me and the price to buy was reasonable I'd most likely buy one.As things stand and I feel will do for the forseeable future as they're too costly to buy,won't have the range,won't tow my caravan,and I strongly suspect if a BEV did meet my criteria after 150k miles of use from new it'd most likely debatably be worthless other than for scrap.
Just to put things into perspective I'm currently driving a Ford Smax 2ltr TDCi bought for £6k with 55k miles on,now after three years use has 94k miles on and I'm expecting it to do at least another 60k miles/5years without the need for major work other than servicing .
Environmental arguments apart stacked up against any BEV with even a £12k price tag and there's just no contest for me.
That's my standpoint against me owning a BEV,what works for you doesn't for me and a whole shed load of other people.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 5:29pm
pete75 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 3:20pm Running costs for a BEV are higher than for a diesel car according to the RAC, though lower than for petrol.
No - not even close. What are your assumptions here, that you always run from the most expensive DC chargers in the country for all your mileage?
What utter tripe.
Really - what are your figures then?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

Nearholmer wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 3:48pm
According to the Secretary-General of the United Nations "The climate crisis has passed the point of no return — even though we had plenty of warning and could have acted earlier. "
Here’s the full text of what he said https://press.un.org/en/2022/sgsm21173.doc.htm

Nowhere in it that I can find does he say “give up; we’re all doomed anyway, so there’s no point bothering”

We are in a perfect position to make matters a lot worse, or only a little bit worse. Personally, I’m not keen for my kids to grow up into a world any worse than it will be given full effort.
Yes I've read it, that's where I got the quote from. No, he doesn't say that but it's what he implies. TBH honest I was thinking of getting a BEV but all the self righteous crap in this thread is putting me off.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: BEVs

Post by francovendee »

reohn2 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 8:11pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 12:43pm "I don't believe cars are the answer"
Whilst there will always be a small proportion of people for whom a car is the most suitable, rather than just the most convenient, means of transport... you're right, in the vast majority of cases they aren't the correct answer - but at the moment they're what is being chosen, and BEVs offer a substantial reduction in harm both to the global environment and more particularly to those in their immediate vicinity.
I agree but at risk of repeating myself,they don't work for me and compared to ICEV are far too expensive for me.
If your complaint is that there aren't enough chargers... well there are hundreds of millions of charge points all over the country... every three pin socket you see is a charge point.
The average UK car does 20 miles a day, thats about 5kWh of electrons, or under two hours plugged into the slowest charger versions we have - it's only 3.5 hours at the slowest rate the Type2 standard supports.
I know - you were complaining about the lack of DC charge points. There are nearly five thousand rapid charge locations - and well over thirty thousand AC chargers, which is encouraging, particularly since the majority of people very rarely need to use public charging.
Which can work for a lot of people,I've no argument with that if DC chargers are available but they aren't always,but I'm arguing from a personal POV,my motoring is double the average and when the car is in use it'll be between 200 and 300miles in a day,the shortest use it does is a once a week supermarket trip but mainly it's days out plus caravan towing duties.
BTW my car never goes into a city and only ever goes into a town when absolutely necessary which isn't very often.
Having recently filled a car up with fossil fuels I was reminded just how unpleasant an experience it is - and people think nothing of it, and won't hear the process criticised because it's what they've internalised as "normal".
Sorry but I have to disagree with you there,filling my car up with diesel isn't an unpleasant experience,it's not smelly and the fuel stations I use certainly aren't dirty.

As I've posted before and stress again,if a BEV worked for me and the price to buy was reasonable I'd most likely buy one.As things stand and I feel will do for the forseeable future as they're too costly to buy,won't have the range,won't tow my caravan,and I strongly suspect if a BEV did meet my criteria after 150k miles of use from new it'd most likely debatably be worthless other than for scrap.
Just to put things into perspective I'm currently driving a Ford Smax 2ltr TDCi bought for £6k with 55k miles on,now after three years use has 94k miles on and I'm expecting it to do at least another 60k miles/5years without the need for major work other than servicing .
Environmental arguments apart stacked up against any BEV with even a £12k price tag and there's just no contest for me.
That's my standpoint against me owning a BEV,what works for you doesn't for me and a whole shed load of other people.
Much as I'd like to drive a 'greener' car I couldn't possibly afford a new one. I'd like to see a review of a six + year old car bought second hand.
I bought a 2000 Ford Focus TD in around 2006 that had 100000 miles on the clock. It had all the service records and although not in pristine condition I continued using it until 2017. By then it had 250000 miles on the clock. It didn't burn oil or smoke. By the way I paid £2300 for it.
What second hand electric car can offer me the same economy?
geocycle
Posts: 2177
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 9:46am

Re: BEVs

Post by geocycle »

To reduce carbon emissions we have to change our lifestyles. All of us will do it indifferent ways through reducing flights, changing diets, owning fewer vehicles or shifting to electric for those we need. At the moment the economics in the UK don’t work for most people and there is a strong argument to repair rather than consume new. However, it will change, as the balance in fuel prices, taxation, second hand market develops and production costs fall. The only question is when and how long it takes for each of us who still need a vehicle to get to that point.
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

pete75 wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 12:10am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 5:29pm
pete75 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 3:20pm Running costs for a BEV are higher than for a diesel car according to the RAC, though lower than for petrol.
No - not even close. What are your assumptions here, that you always run from the most expensive DC chargers in the country for all your mileage?
What utter tripe.
Really - what are your figures then?
Approximately 2p per mile

When I ran the overall cost comparison in 2019, using 15 years worth of expenses data along with fuel at £1.10 and cheap rate electricity at 10p I assumed 3.5m/kWh (which is low) and 40mpg (which was on the high side) - the costs for our usage (12k miles/year) came out to be the same (within a couple of percent). One thing that isn't accounted for here is the comfort and peace of mind which the (brand new) EV has brought as well - no unexpected expenses from suspension components failing and shredding the tyres (fortunately on our drive, not a motorway) or other failures normally associated with vehicles at or around 100k miles of use.

Note also that fuel is still 50% more expensive than it was when I did the maths (and it's been much higher, but never lower) - and bear in mind that the fuel was the dominant cost (just under 50% of the total) for the ICE, so any change here is a major change in the cost of transport.
I actually pay less than I estimated for electricity - much less if you consider that I'd have to pay the standing charge anyway (I usually allocated that to each unit) and if you allocate my EV usage all to the off peak electricity that it uses (cheap rate is 7.5p, whilst my overall rate this year, including the SC, has been 9.8p), but it actually makes little difference what I pay, the cost of electrons is less than 10% of the running cost, so even fairly large swings in the cost make little overall difference.

I reckon I'm probably spending 40% less on transport than I did before, and for a much better car.

There is effectively no reasonable way to make an EV cost more than a comparable ICE on a per mile basis. I suppose you could find the most expensive charger network and exclusively charge from there, and get to cost parity, but that's not the way anyone would use a vehicle.
Last edited by [XAP]Bob on 31 Mar 2023, 1:05pm, edited 2 times in total.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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al_yrpal
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Re: BEVs

Post by al_yrpal »

TBH honest I was thinking of getting a BEV but all the self righteous crap in this thread is putting me off.
Buy a (decent) banger Pete. In my remaining lifetime I decided its the greenest and most sensible thing to do. All the desperate TV ads for new BEVs make me feel like weeping.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

reohn2 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 8:11pm at risk of repeating myself,they don't work for me and compared to ICEV are far too expensive for me.

my motoring is double the average and when the car is in use it'll be between 200 and 300miles in a day,the shortest use it does is a once a week supermarket trip but mainly it's days out plus caravan towing duties.
One of the "I must drive a thousand miles without blinking" and "all new technologies must immediately have a mature used market" brigade.
2-300 miles in a day isn't actually an issue, although you probably don't want a fiat 500e.
Having recently filled a car up with fossil fuels I was reminded just how unpleasant an experience it is - and people think nothing of it, and won't hear the process criticised because it's what they've internalised as "normal".
Sorry but I have to disagree with you there,filling my car up with diesel isn't an unpleasant experience,it's not smelly and the fuel stations I use certainly aren't dirty.
You're just used to it.

The fuel smells, that's just part of what being a volatile liquid means - and we make no attempt to prevent those fumes spewing at the person filling up.
If you look around there are gloves provided, and wipes.
The floor is generally wet with a film of oil/fuel, usually mixed in with some sand to "clean it up"
The handles of the pumps are covered in a thin film of what I assume is condensed hydrocarbons - certainly smells like it.
You have the exhaust from all the idling vehicles waiting to get to a pump, and well as those driving in, or idling while they do their makeup (or whatever it is some people do before moving off)

All of this is "just normal" so you don't realise how unpleasant it is - you are the proverbial frog in a boiling pot.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

It’s going to be very interesting to see what the market decides. From reading around I see that the price of second hand BEV’s is falling, there are just only so many people who are prepared to buy electric and poor people (much of the type who buy second hand) don’t want to pay premium prices. Electric cars might be mechanically simple but electrically they’re not and whilst a mechanical repair might be doable enough (allowing an ICE vehicle to be kept on the road) electrical repairs require less commonly available skills and equipment.

https://www.speakev.com/threads/this-mi ... et.171879/
Last edited by Carlton green on 31 Mar 2023, 10:27am, edited 2 times in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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