BEVs
Re: BEVs
These are Rowan Atkinson's words in today's Guardian article, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-atkinson
"Increasingly, I’m feeling that our honeymoon with electric cars is coming to an end, and that’s no bad thing: we’re realising that a wider range of options need to be explored if we’re going to properly address the very serious environmental problems that our use of the motor car has created.... As an environmentalist once said to me, if you really need a car, buy an old one and use it as little as possible."
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Re: BEVs
A well written article that I’d recommend to others to read. I’d come to a similar conclusion as RA but don’t claim to be as well informed.Biospace wrote: ↑3 Jun 2023, 11:11am
These are Rowan Atkinson's words in today's Guardian article, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-atkinson
"Increasingly, I’m feeling that our honeymoon with electric cars is coming to an end, and that’s no bad thing: we’re realising that a wider range of options need to be explored if we’re going to properly address the very serious environmental problems that our use of the motor car has created.... As an environmentalist once said to me, if you really need a car, buy an old one and use it as little as possible."
Thank you for sharing the article.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Re: BEVs
Quite why the UK should be subsidising JLR to pollute UK roads with its light trucks is beyond me! (Yes, I know, 'it's the economy, stupid'...)Biospace wrote: ↑3 Jun 2023, 11:09amOver a week later, has there still been no official announcement? We've promised Tata £500m for the Bridgwater plant, with a further £300 for their British steel interests.UpWrong wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 3:20pm Fingers crossed for JLR to announce battery plant in Somerset: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65698529
"We're paying the price for the lack of industrial strategy" Jurgen Maïer, who continued to contrast the UK's "ad hoc" approach with the methodical, "holistic" German way.
As heard on Radio 4 this morning, https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001ml4q from 48m08 to 57m40.
"42"
Re: BEVs
Spot on!Biospace wrote: ↑3 Jun 2023, 11:09amOver a week later, has there still been no official announcement? We've promised Tata £500m for the Bridgwater plant, with a further £300 for their British steel interests.UpWrong wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 3:20pm Fingers crossed for JLR to announce battery plant in Somerset: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65698529
"We're paying the price for the lack of industrial strategy" Jurgen Maïer, who continued to contrast the UK's "ad hoc" approach with the methodical, "holistic" German way.
As heard on Radio 4 this morning, https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001ml4q from 48m08 to 57m40.
It's the same story across all UK industries except banking!
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Re: BEVs
An 'educated' view on BEVs....
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-atkinson
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-atkinson
Alan environmentalist once said to me, if you really need a car, buy an old one and use it as little as possible
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Re: BEVs
Atkinson's article is a curate's egg, which is only appropriate.
It identifies quite a lot of the issues that need to be taken into account both for policy and individual decisions. But it's highly selective on the information which should inform those decisions, for example on moving and storing hydrogen, on lifetime emissions and crossover points, the life of batteries, and the feasibility of batteries for commercial vehicles.
And it falls into the trap of "we were duped" and "electric motoring doesn’t seem to be quite the environmental panacea it is claimed to be". Good for creating arguments and polarisation, bad for informed discussion.
So in many ways it's similar to what this thread has unfortunately become. At the beginning there was some excellent identification of the issues and lots of supporting evidence.
Jonathan
It identifies quite a lot of the issues that need to be taken into account both for policy and individual decisions. But it's highly selective on the information which should inform those decisions, for example on moving and storing hydrogen, on lifetime emissions and crossover points, the life of batteries, and the feasibility of batteries for commercial vehicles.
And it falls into the trap of "we were duped" and "electric motoring doesn’t seem to be quite the environmental panacea it is claimed to be". Good for creating arguments and polarisation, bad for informed discussion.
So in many ways it's similar to what this thread has unfortunately become. At the beginning there was some excellent identification of the issues and lots of supporting evidence.
Jonathan
Re: BEVs
Some examples of specific individual decisions:
* Should I replace my car with another car or not?
* I'm going to replace my car with another car: should it be ICE or electric?
* How much range do I really need?
It would be great if the expertise demonstrated in this thread could be brought to bear on specific decisions rather than being used to jump around from one issue to another.
Jonathan
* Should I replace my car with another car or not?
* I'm going to replace my car with another car: should it be ICE or electric?
* How much range do I really need?
It would be great if the expertise demonstrated in this thread could be brought to bear on specific decisions rather than being used to jump around from one issue to another.
Jonathan
Re: BEVs
PS: The Guardian's approach is great for supporting informed discussion: open access, no paywall, no identity tracking, open comment below the line, removal of abuse...Jdsk wrote: ↑4 Jun 2023, 10:01am ...
It identifies quite a lot of the issues that need to be taken into account both for policy and individual decisions. But it's highly selective on the information which should inform those decisions, for example on moving and storing hydrogen, on lifetime emissions and crossover points, the life of batteries, and the feasibility of batteries for commercial vehicles.
...
And the points that I've made here are all fleshed out in the below the line discussion there.
Re: BEVs
Rowans views are almost identically expoused on page 3 of the Sunday Timewaster.
IMV the Guardian is a hard left wing organ for cheapskates. Highly biased, just as bad as the right wing papers it criticises.
The average Joe cant possibly forensically examine or decide unemotionally about BEVs. A lot of car buying is emotional, some driven by eco thoughts, others by less rational and more basic urges.
Al
IMV the Guardian is a hard left wing organ for cheapskates. Highly biased, just as bad as the right wing papers it criticises.
The average Joe cant possibly forensically examine or decide unemotionally about BEVs. A lot of car buying is emotional, some driven by eco thoughts, others by less rational and more basic urges.
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Re: BEVs
Jdsk wrote: ↑4 Jun 2023, 10:01am Atkinson's article is a curate's egg, which is only appropriate.
It identifies quite a lot of the issues that need to be taken into account both for policy and individual decisions. But it's highly selective on the information which should inform those decisions, for example on moving and storing hydrogen, on lifetime emissions and crossover points, the life of batteries, and the feasibility of batteries for commercial vehicles.
And it falls into the trap of "we were duped" and "electric motoring doesn’t seem to be quite the environmental panacea it is claimed to be". Good for creating arguments and polarisation, bad for informed discussion.
So in many ways it's similar to what this thread has unfortunately become. At the beginning there was some excellent identification of the issues and lots of supporting evidence.
Jonathan
Many longer threads tail off or become patchy in quality, including this one. I thought it had run its course several pages ago, but the nature of these things is that they remain open to comment and so drift on... but sometimes return to some good debate.
A few pages back I made some notes of points made in the thread, I'll paste them in a following post.
I started the thread because I felt there was some confusion about how 'clean' BEVs are and how much of an improvement they are on the ICEv. Notably, there is a lack of understanding of non-exhaust particulate emissions and of cradle-to-grave emissions. I observe the public believing an EV is a route to absolving blame for air pollution and environmental damage and so will use them with abandon.
Mr Atkinson clearly sees the benefits and potential for benefits with BEVs, but feels similarly. His use of information was selective in favour of electric propulsion and storage because the point of his article is about this technology and the questioning of whether it is really so much better than people have been led to believe.
There are environmental issues with any fuel, including green hydrogen, but as yet we haven't embarked on a headlong drive for this, unlike with BEVs. All the data will be open for debate, as technologies emerge and political policies form.
Last edited by Biospace on 4 Jun 2023, 12:26pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: BEVs
If the point was to show that we have been "duped" it would have been better if he'd given examples of that: who, what, when, and why if he wished. Cherrypicking data about the strengths and weaknesses of current (!) and future technology doesn't help in the argument about being "duped".Biospace wrote: ↑4 Jun 2023, 12:15pm ...
Mr Atkinson clearly sees the benefits and potential for benefits with BEVs, but feels similarly. His use of information was selective in favour of those to do with electric propulsion and storage because the seemingly relentless march of the EV and that it is not, yet, nearly so 'green' as we've been led to believe was the point of his article.
...
Jonathan
Re: BEVs
Atkinson - "My first university degree was in electrical and electronic engineering, with a subsequent master’s in control systems. When you start to drill into the facts, electric motoring doesn’t seem to be quite the environmental panacea it is claimed to be."Jdsk wrote: ↑4 Jun 2023, 12:25pm If the point was to show that we have been "duped" it would have been better if he'd given examples of that: who, what, when, and why if he wished. Cherrypicking data about the strengths and weaknesses of current (!) and future technology doesn't help in the argument about being "duped".
Jonathan
He says that as an early adopter of EVs, he feels duped. As an intelligent person who understands the many complex issues surrounding this whole topic, this is relevant.
Cherrypicking is what we all do to some extent, to help clarify the points we're making. It becomes dangerously misleading when government itself decides to call EVs "Zero Emission" and tax them accordingly.
Re: BEVs
Consider an EV powered by energy from nuclear power. Both these technologies have been sold to us by government as something like safe and effective, or clean and reliable, or whatever their spin doctors' phrases were.
Around half the energy from nuclear power is lost when the heat is turned into electricity. Another 10% or so vanishes in transmission and a further 15% of what's left in the battery charging and battery itself. Which means that around 39% of the original energy is used to propel a battery powered electric car but its range is significantly lower in cold weather with the heater on.
For an ICEv car at best, including production and transportation losses, it can be as high as 30% but more often 20-25%.
Around half the energy from nuclear power is lost when the heat is turned into electricity. Another 10% or so vanishes in transmission and a further 15% of what's left in the battery charging and battery itself. Which means that around 39% of the original energy is used to propel a battery powered electric car but its range is significantly lower in cold weather with the heater on.
For an ICEv car at best, including production and transportation losses, it can be as high as 30% but more often 20-25%.
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Re: BEVs
Biospace started the thread and he’s done a good job with keeping the conversation useful. I’m not at all sure that he needs any help with that and, as far as I’ve read and remembered, he’s tried to keep the thread informative rather than biased.Jdsk wrote: ↑4 Jun 2023, 10:05am Some examples of specific individual decisions:
* Should I replace my car with another car or not?
* I'm going to replace my car with another car: should it be ICE or electric?
* How much range do I really need?
It would be great if the expertise demonstrated in this thread could be brought to bear on specific decisions rather than being used to jump around from one issue to another.
Jonathan
RA has had an electric car for ten years, he’s an early adopter and one not without some intellect and relevant technical background - I’d argue that his degrees are amongst the most demanding to pass too, respect where it’s due.
Two questions you forgot to pose above are:
Is there an electric car that’s of the size that I need from a brand that I trust?
Is there an electric car available that will match my budget (for an ICE car)?
For me, when I looked, the answer to both was ‘not really’.
Asking questions is good, less so though when they are leading people to answers that the questioner has in mind.
Have an electric car if you really want one, but it’s not unfair to say that there’s been some ‘green washing’ and we should all question what we’re told and sold,
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Re: BEVs
When the local MP Mr Ian Liddell Grainger was asked about this announcement he said the deal was a long way from being finalised. Don't hold your breath or believe everything the press are saying.UpWrong wrote: ↑26 May 2023, 3:20pm Fingers crossed for JLR to announce battery plant in Somerset: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65698529
And as the area is hosting the biggest construction site in Europe at Hinkley C which is ramping up construction and needs a few thousand more workers where are the workers for a gigabattery plant to come from. The workers for Hinkley are going to be housed in the Burnham on Sea Pontins holiday park for a few years. Much to the consternation of the local shops who see there bucket and spade sales collapsing.
Pontins Brean Sands closed to house Hinkley Point C workers - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-64234471
Last edited by rjb on 4 Jun 2023, 2:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
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