BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

Mark R wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 3:08pm
Providing this and the exhaust system, including any DPF, is maintained in good order there's no reason why emissions should increase greatly with age.
Top
Sorry but this is utter bunkum, clearly evidenced by the fact that pretty much all older diesels from cars to trucks to tractors to buses are now filthy and stinking.
Oh yeah, go round measuring them and recording their maintenance history do you? The problems will be with those that aren't correctly maintained. What experience do you have of working on and maintaining diesel engine?.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Mark R wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 3:08pm
Providing this and the exhaust system, including any DPF, is maintained in good order there's no reason why emissions should increase greatly with age.
Top
Sorry but this is utter bunkum, clearly evidenced by the fact that pretty much all older diesels from cars to trucks to tractors to buses are now filthy and stinking.
As far as I’m aware the annual MOT is pretty strict about emissions - what fails is either repaired or taken off of the road - and whilst I’ve seen some dirty diesels in past years it’s now next to impossible to identify whether a car is diesel powered or not by observing their tail pipe output. Dirty buses and lorries, well they too are subject to strict emissions testing. Experiences vary, but I think that I could be forgiven for suspecting prejudice.

I have noticed diesel locomotives (trains) pushing out black smoke …
Black smoke is often evidence that your car is burning too much raw fuel. This could be for a number of reasons, such as a leaking fuel injector, a failed engine sensor, or a defective fuel pressure regulator.
( https://www.carmoney.co.uk/blog/what-do ... smoke-mean )
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Mark R
Posts: 643
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Mark R »

Oh yeah, go round measuring them and recording their maintenance history do you? The problems will be with those that aren't correctly maintained. What experience do you have of working on and maintaining diesel engine?.
What experience do I have - until recently I did it for a living. What is your perspective? (ATM it seems like a straightforward case of air pollution denial)

By maintenance I suppose you mean scheduled oil and fuel filter changes - the items in the service schedule? If you think this is enough to keep a high mileage diesel running cleanly you are very wrong indeed. Of course you could replace injectors etc. But that would be uneconomical and in any case, blow by gases past piston rings and valve stems add to the general filthyness of the exhaust emissions,

I have been hearing for years that only poorly maintained engines cause emission problems. It is false information which needs to be called out.
Mark R
Posts: 643
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Mark R »

As far as I’m aware the annual MOT is pretty strict about emissions
This is unfortunately quite false

Due to the laxness of the MOT a diesel can be eyewateringly filthy and still fly through the emissions test.

There is now a requirement to look for visible smoke, which is of zero practical value - its not about what you can see - trust your nose - if it smells bad it is bad.
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Mark R wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 4:54pm
As far as I’m aware the annual MOT is pretty strict about emissions
This is unfortunately quite false

Due to the laxness of the MOT a diesel can be eyewateringly filthy and still fly through the emissions test.

There is now a requirement to look for visible smoke, which is of zero practical value - its not about what you can see - trust your nose - if it smells bad it is bad.
Sorry but this is utter bunkum, clearly evidenced by the fact that pretty much all older diesels from cars to trucks to tractors to buses are now filthy and stinking.
Your comments don’t quite seem to chime with the published required DVLA standards:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... dition.pdf
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Mark R
Posts: 643
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Mark R »

Good...now go and read the section on diesel emission testing. Tell me which part of it represents a stringent test of emissions. The tests are reasonably strict for spark ignition engines but the diesel test is different and more lax. Evidenced by the number of filthy stinking vehicles which pass the emission test.
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: BEVs

Post by Stevek76 »

pwa wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 2:15pm The problem with road charging is that it disciplines use by the less well off, whilst just making the roads less congested for the wealthy.
And by reinvesting the fees paid by the wealthy in public transport and active travel improvements it becomes an efficient transfer of wealth from rich to poor, far more so than most of our existing taxes.

Those with means will always find ways to spend around restrictions, we can either funnel that spend into the public purse or we can have some weird moral hang up about it and it just ends up in other mostly also well off people's pockets (private parking, multiple cars and so on).

(Also exemptions/reductions for things like car club cars are options)
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pwa »

Stevek76 wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 6:36pm
pwa wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 2:15pm The problem with road charging is that it disciplines use by the less well off, whilst just making the roads less congested for the wealthy.
And by reinvesting the fees paid by the wealthy in public transport and active travel improvements it becomes an efficient transfer of wealth from rich to poor, far more so than most of our existing taxes.

Those with means will always find ways to spend around restrictions, we can either funnel that spend into the public purse or we can have some weird moral hang up about it and it just ends up in other mostly also well off people's pockets (private parking, multiple cars and so on).

(Also exemptions/reductions for things like car club cars are options)
So I decide I can't afford to drive on a particular local road at 9am every morning, but the people down the road with (and this is true) a selection of Porsches for weekdays and a Lambo for the weekends, get to enjoy roads that have fewer less wealthy drivers on them. Mmmm.... I'm not sure I feel entirely comfortable with that inequity. And the people who will be hardest hit will be people like shop workers and personal carers who can't decide to travel later in the morning.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Carlton green wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 11:44am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 11:30am
roubaixtuesday wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 10:46am I think this issue is also wrapped up with the wider use of cars - it's perfectly possible for EVs to be both better than ICE vehicles *and* really bad for the environment, and separating the emotions associated with those is hard.
Yes - the fight is generally against letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Yes, perfection is the enemy of good. On the other hand BEV are not necessarily good and ICV’s are not necessarily bad, there’s rather too much polarisation.
But one is clearly better than the other in a significant number of different ways, and not worse in any.
And I know you'll bleat that they're heavier... but that's nothing to do with power train, and all to do with marketing and design.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

pwa wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 2:15pm The problem with road charging is that it disciplines use by the less well off, whilst just making the roads less congested for the wealthy.
Only if the charge is flat - but also... we need some way of reducing usage... and one of the few levers that the government has is economic incentives.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
geocycle
Posts: 2177
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 9:46am

Re: BEVs

Post by geocycle »

One benefit I didn’t anticipate of EVs is that they are very efficient at modest speeds. Pootling around country lines at 30-40 mph or start stop around town seems to boost range considerably. Conversely hurtling down the motorway at 80 mph drains the battery. Let’s hope they make folk more conscious of speed.
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 7:45pm
pwa wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 2:15pm The problem with road charging is that it disciplines use by the less well off, whilst just making the roads less congested for the wealthy.
Only if the charge is flat - but also... we need some way of reducing usage... and one of the few levers that the government has is economic incentives.
A variable rather than flat rate tariff, say based on ability to pay, might work. However it can be but a course judgement which will doubtless be resented by some … and the truly wealthy will almost certainly find a way around whatever is implemented. As the wealthy tend to drive large new luxury vehicles then VED taxation bands based on first purchase price, age, weight, size and power might be reasonable and more difficult to evade - a bit complex though.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: BEVs

Post by Stevek76 »

pwa wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 7:06pm So I decide I can't afford to drive on a particular local road at 9am every morning, but the people down the road with (and this is true) a selection of Porsches for weekdays and a Lambo for the weekends, get to enjoy roads that have fewer less wealthy drivers on them.
This hypothetical person can however get a now much more reliable (and potentially subsidised) bus service or use that nicely funded cycle infrastructure to get to work, probably faster. And the extra £s can be continually invested in roadspace reallocation towards more space efficient modes.

Again, it doesn't matter what restrictions you implement, the wealthy will always have options to spend to get around them. And realistically, whilst the typical inbound car commuter might not be as rich as the people down the road, if they are commuting a substantial amount of miles by car every day they are clearly not low income and certainly not as low income as some of the people in neighbourhoods they likely drive through who have to deal with all their externalities.

That said I think Cambridge is proposing some discounts to lower income households, along with exemptions for eg car club cars. Plenty of scope to vary the rate on these sort of things though care always needs be taken not to water the scheme down to being useless.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Nearholmer
Posts: 3929
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: BEVs

Post by Nearholmer »

It’s a question of rationing the use of a scarce resource, that is road space or ability to pollute, and the classic way of achieving fairness in rationing is to allocate everyone, irrespective of rank or prosperity, the same number of tokens per unit time.

It’s a good idea to make the tokens non-tradable too, otherwise rich people buy them all up from poor people.

So, one could allocate, say 1000 tokens per week to each of us, then price use either on a ‘flat’ basis, or with temporal and/or geographic differences. So, it might cost 200 units to drive five miles into a city centre at 0900 on a weekday, while only costing 10 units to drive five miles down a remote country lane at the same time.

One could even have differential pricing as between “home area” and “places miles from home”, which would help, for instance, people who live in Snowdonia of The Lake District, who shouldn’t be penalised for needing to drive to the dentists when the charge rate is set astronomically high to prevent the place clogging up with tourist-cars.

People disabled in a way that prevents them travelling other than by private car might get extra tokens, and people could be docked tokens for commuting driving offences. Commercial concerns would get tokens on some defined basis, and I expect that farmers would get complete exemption to buy-off what can be a vocal/powerful minority.

If one wanted to use it as a means to raise revenue, tokens could be sold, rather than issued free, but people would only be able to buy up to the cap.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

Mark R wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 4:47pm
Oh yeah, go round measuring them and recording their maintenance history do you? The problems will be with those that aren't correctly maintained. What experience do you have of working on and maintaining diesel engine?.
What experience do I have - until recently I did it for a living. What is your perspective? (ATM it seems like a straightforward case of air pollution denial)

By maintenance I suppose you mean scheduled oil and fuel filter changes - the items in the service schedule? If you think this is enough to keep a high mileage diesel running cleanly you are very wrong indeed. Of course you could replace injectors etc. But that would be uneconomical and in any case, blow by gases past piston rings and valve stems add to the general filthyness of the exhaust emissions,

I have been hearing for years that only poorly maintained engines cause emission problems. It is false information which needs to be called out.
No I mean keeping the injection system in good order. Yes injectors need to be replaced from time to time and it's not overly expensive. Again blowby and leaky valve stems can be fixed by a rebore, new pistons, new guides and valves.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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