BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

BEVs

Post by Biospace »

Battery Electric vehicles are becoming more and more of a common sight on our roads, governments are incentivising and subsidising their use and their image has been turned around completely over the last decade. Discussions surrounding them have repeatedly taken other threads off topic so I thought it might make sense for there to be a thread to talk about their qualities.

The multiple inefficiencies and harshness of the internal combustion engine were hated by engineers when they began to replace steam power, one of my great uncles refused to own a car because of this and travelled around on bicycles, by taxi, sailing boat and train. He would have been delighted with the introduction of the Nissan Leaf back in 2011.

Their batteries are a concern for environmentalists, as are the fossil fuels being burned to provide a large part of the energy to power them in many countries, but the lack of exhaust gases at point of use was taken up early on by our government as a very good reason to promote them. Good public infrastructure, especially where on street parking exists, has yet to be rolled out.

Battery technology has improved considerably since the Leaf first went on sale, the vehicles themselves still have some way to go on the development curve, which isn't to say they're not already very good. Perhaps like the early horseless carriages, there are aspects of ICEvs which have been carried through to BEVs which are no longer necessary? How might their increasing use affect the cyclist?
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Perhaps like the early horseless carriages, there are aspects of ICEvs which have been carried through to BEVs which are no longer necessary?
Like a bonnet...
There are plenty of things where the old way is far too ingrained.

I actually moved to an EV because it was the only way I could reasonably thoil the motability lease - running cost was necessarily high on the list of priorities.
The main advantages to me were actually the much lower noise levels (meaning I can actually converse with other occupants) and the additional driver aids which came with it being a new car - those made more difference to me than I could possibly have anticipated.
Their batteries are a concern for environmentalists, as are the fossil fuels being burned to provide a large part of the energy to power them in many countries
The use of fossil fuels to power them isn't a concern to any thinking environmentalist - because they're burning less fuel, even if they run entirely on FF based electrons.

The batteries are rapidly improving, and most environmentalists appreciate that they will be key to getting rid of fossil fuels (digging stuff up once and reusing it forever beats digging stuff up and burning it). There are, of course, excellent arguments for reducing use, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't reduce the effect of the stuff we still do...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
User avatar
horizon
Posts: 11275
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Cornwall

Re: BEVs

Post by horizon »

Biospace wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 4:59pm Their batteries are a concern for environmentalists, as are the fossil fuels being burned to provide a large part of the energy to power them in many countries,
There are six major concerns IMV:
1. The mining of cobalt and and other metals for the production of the batteries.
2. The need to dispose of the batteries particularly because of the slow progress on recycling them.
3. The environmental cost (energy and raw materials) of producing new vehicles
4. The generation of electricity to charge the batteries.
5. The need for roads, parking and other infrastructure to accommodate vehicles.
6. The health disbenefits of people using vehicles for personal transport.

The people down the road from us have a huge new EV. I doubt it has any advantage over the chap with his 50 year old VW Beetle - it is reducing the size and usage of cars that really makes the difference, along with keeping old vehicles going.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
User avatar
Lance Dopestrong
Posts: 1306
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 1:52pm
Location: Duddington, in the belly button of England

Re: BEVs

Post by Lance Dopestrong »

7. Massive and irreversible depletion of groundwater and damage to water tables.
8. Environmental chemical pollution.

Mind you, that's has stopped me being on my third electric car and 2nd ebike.
MIAS L5.1 instructor - advanded road and off road skills, FAST aid and casualty care, defensive tactics, SAR skills, nav, group riding, maintenance, ride and group leader qual'd.
Cytec 2 - exponent of hammer applied brute force.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

Lance Dopestrong wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 6:00pm Mind you, that's has stopped me being on my third electric car and 2nd ebike.
Should we be reading 'not' instead of 'has'?


I wonder what proportion of regular contributors regularly use an electric car?
Nearholmer
Posts: 3929
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: BEVs

Post by Nearholmer »

The milkman round here still uses a proper, trad electric milk float with lead-acid batteries, and his round is enormously long (and slow). I think what he likes is that it is silent and cheap!
User avatar
Lance Dopestrong
Posts: 1306
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 1:52pm
Location: Duddington, in the belly button of England

Re: BEVs

Post by Lance Dopestrong »

Biospace wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 9:03pm
Lance Dopestrong wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 6:00pm Mind you, that's has stopped me being on my third electric car and 2nd ebike.
Should we be reading 'not' instead of 'has'?
Aye, has NOT. Fat fingers and a small screen are a deadly combination.
MIAS L5.1 instructor - advanded road and off road skills, FAST aid and casualty care, defensive tactics, SAR skills, nav, group riding, maintenance, ride and group leader qual'd.
Cytec 2 - exponent of hammer applied brute force.
User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 11537
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: BEVs

Post by al_yrpal »

Thinking back to before 2004 when I last worked a BEV wouldnt have worked for me because of poor BEV infrastructure. From what my son has experienced with his company supplied BEV and what I have read they would be a non starter.
Now, with a sub 5000 miles per annum requirement, shelling out £30 grand for an EV makes no eco or economic sense to me. Other more eco concious folk might disagree.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

The best calculator that I have found so far for carbon dioxide emission, allows for manufacturing and use, selection of mileage, source of electricity, and regional factors:
https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/ ... nization=0

Jonathan
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: BEVs

Post by francovendee »

al_yrpal wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 8:22am Thinking back to before 2004 when I last worked a BEV wouldnt have worked for me because of poor BEV infrastructure. From what my son has experienced with his company supplied BEV and what I have read they would be a non starter.
Now, with a sub 5000 miles per annum requirement, shelling out £30 grand for an EV makes no eco or economic sense to me. Other more eco concious folk might disagree.

Al
I've heard the same from my son in law. He loves driving the car and mostly charges up at home but can't sleep the night before a long journey because he's stressing about finding a working charge point.

Cynic that I am, I remember not so long ago how diesel cars were the things to buy. It's now the opposite and you are a polluter if you still drive one. :?
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 8:22am Thinking back to before 2004 when I last worked a BEV wouldnt have worked for me because of poor BEV infrastructure. From what my son has experienced with his company supplied BEV and what I have read they would be a non starter.
Now, with a sub 5000 miles per annum requirement, shelling out £30 grand for an EV makes no eco or economic sense to me. Other more eco concious folk might disagree.

Al
I agree,the electric car is a con and other than in towns and city short haul vehicle use it's a dead duck.Long journeys aren't possible without a lot of planning due to a lack of charging infrastructure,increasing cost of charging whilst away from home,a woeful lack of range,initial cost of the vehicle and battery depletion after as little as 50,000miles which presently can render the whole vehicle to the scrapyard due to costly battery replacement.
When all these minuses are address only then will an electric car be viable and affordable for many people.
And after all that any car electric or not is still a liability in cities and towns due to congestion,parking etc.

EDIT:- then there's there's the pollution,Volvo have recently admitted that their electric cars would need to be driven approx 75Kmiles before it became less polluting than an ICE vehicle,at which point the battery is nearing the end of it's life,so say the owner gets 100Kmiles before needing a new battery at which point they'd be asking if it were worth the cost.Compare that with an ICE car,I've driven many cars I've owned to 150Kmiles with no more than regular servicing,with many modern ICE powered cars being driven in excess of 200Kmiles plus without any major engine or drivetrain overhaul needed.

IMO the answer to major town and city travel is good quality public transport or the bicycle and or it's E variant or electric scooter or motorcycle,not some lumbering four seater behemoth E or ICE powered that's a liability to all concerned including the driver when not in use and which is the major cause of congestion in towns and cities
Last edited by reohn2 on 15 Mar 2023, 9:34am, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

francovendee wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 8:36am I've heard the same from my son in law. He loves driving the car and mostly charges up at home but can't sleep the night before a long journey because he's stressing about finding a working charge point.
Really? can't sleep?
The infrastructure isn't that bad... not by a long shot.

Nothing quite like hyperbole and FUD is there.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 9:31am
francovendee wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 8:36am I've heard the same from my son in law. He loves driving the car and mostly charges up at home but can't sleep the night before a long journey because he's stressing about finding a working charge point.
Really? can't sleep?
The infrastructure isn't that bad... not by a long shot.

Nothing quite like hyperbole and FUD is there.
"Owning an Electric Vehicle is the Cure for Most Consumer Concerns":
https://newsroom.aaa.com/2020/01/aaa-ow ... -concerns/

That fits with what I hear from EV owners. But of course they're still early adopters and unrepresentative.

Jonathan
pwa
Posts: 17370
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pwa »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 9:31am
francovendee wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 8:36am I've heard the same from my son in law. He loves driving the car and mostly charges up at home but can't sleep the night before a long journey because he's stressing about finding a working charge point.
Really? can't sleep?
The infrastructure isn't that bad... not by a long shot.

Nothing quite like hyperbole and FUD is there.
I have heard the same sort of story from various people, about stress on longer journeys due to problems with charging infrastructure. There is definitely an issue with that at the moment, though investment could fix it. The EV owners I have heard good things from have all been people who got them for shorter journeys, and who have space at home for charging.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

horizon wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 5:48pm
Biospace wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 4:59pm Their batteries are a concern for environmentalists, as are the fossil fuels being burned to provide a large part of the energy to power them in many countries,
There are six major concerns IMV:
1. The mining of cobalt and and other metals for the production of the batteries.
2. The need to dispose of the batteries particularly because of the slow progress on recycling them.
3. The environmental cost (energy and raw materials) of producing new vehicles
4. The generation of electricity to charge the batteries.
5. The need for roads, parking and other infrastructure to accommodate vehicles.
6. The health disbenefits of people using vehicles for personal transport.

The people down the road from us have a huge new EV. I doubt it has any advantage over the chap with his 50 year old VW Beetle - it is reducing the size and usage of cars that really makes the difference, along with keeping old vehicles going.
1 - Modern batteries don't use Cobalt, which was a human rights concern.
2 - There is no need to dispose of batteries, they get reused and will eventually get recycled - but there simply aren't enough end of *second* life batteries for volume recycling yet... they last too long.
3 - As has been discussed previously the cost of building and running a BEV is covered by ~30-35k miles compared with using an already built ICEV. It's ICE vehicles we shouldn't be building new.
4 - Is already cleaner than petrol/diesel, and continues to get cleaner year on year.
5 - Not a BEV issue, but is a personal vehicle issue overall.
6 - Yep, though at least the external costs for a BEV are substantially reduced.
6b - (Technically the pedal cycle is a vehicle :wink: )

Re the beetle: see 3
But yes, noone is saying we need bigger cars - I need a car I can get the wheelchair in... but that's a reasonably niche requirement.
It was really nice, in our last ICE vehicle, to be able to just load the wheelchair without spending a minute or so in the wind and rain disassembling/reassembling it - if I can get a BEV which allows that, then I'll jump on it.
Lance Dopestrong wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 6:00pm 7. Massive and irreversible depletion of groundwater and damage to water tables.
8. Environmental chemical pollution.
Any link to BEVs specifically?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Post Reply