BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

axel_knutt
Posts: 2881
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Re: BEVs

Post by axel_knutt »

An interesting article here. BEV insurance write offs and premiums are soaring because the batteries aren't repairable, and in the case of Tesla, are a structural part of the car.

batteries in expensive Tesla Y SUVs have 'zero reparability' because they are a structural part of the car

insurance companies are increasingly being left with little to no choice but to permanently take the cars off the road...which in turn is pushing premiums....higher.

scratched and mildly damaged battery packs 'piling up in scrapyards

Battery packs...make up around half the total price of electric cars....any damage to them will likely...force....insurance companies to write them off.

If you throw away the vehicle at an early stage, you've lost pretty much all advantage in terms of CO2 emissions
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

axel_knutt wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 5:30pm An interesting article here.
...
Firewalled.

Edited: And then not...

Original Reuters article:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 023-03-20/

Jonathan
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Interesting post above about insurance on BEV’s. Some are large and powerful cars, that can do a lot of damage as well as be damaged themselves too, but the insurance groups for them seem to be high to me. I checked on a Nissan Leaf and we’re looking at insurance groups 20 - 25 :shock: .
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

offroader wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 11:10am If perfectly clean is a requirement then you can also rule out the current battery technologies.
The main advantage I see to a lithium dependency is all the environmental damage is hidden in a far away place where it's easily overlooked by consumers, out of sight, out of mind

We do not currently have a problem free solution to global transportation that I'm aware of. If the consumption of fossil fuels was banned tomorrow how will the components of batteries be delivered from the far side of the world on Monday?

We have batteries that can plug the short distance journeys but their lack of energy density makes them problematic for many situations.
We have hydrogen technology which has the energy density but may produce some emissions
We have nuclear technology which is emissions free during it's working life - hopefully.

I don't see a way the world at large can switch to zero emissions overnight. We have spend centuries developing an addiction to fossil fuels in every aspect of life. Steel requires carbon, plastics are wholly reliant on recycled raptors. The list goes on.

We must and will find solutions and we absolutely need targets to drive development but along the way some interim compromise seems inevitable.
People seem happy to embrace that compromise to produce lithium batteries, why not consider others?

Here's the voice of reason to counter those who see the solution is to carry on as before but with heat pumps and huge batteries in overweight vehicles.

If we analyse the carbon problem logically, we should realise that our late 20th/early 21st century way of life is going to change out of all recognition if we're serious about reducing our use of FF considerably. The inefficiences of modern life are beyond crazy, yet nobody seems to want to talk about them.

Transport is responsible for 28% of UK carbon emission, our single largest source (electricity generation and space heating 23%, business and industry 17%), road freight for 10% overall and private vehicles for around 15%. Our railways represent just 1.8% of our carbon emissions.

As has been shown upthread, the cradle to grave carbon emissions of a BEV are typically half to two-thirds that of a ICEv, so as they exist they cannot represent any medium or long term solution?

Moving freight on to rail should be a priority as HGVs are already running as efficiently as they can (without installing electrical wires over our roads or massive batteries are used). In contrast, all private vehicles are remarkably inefficient, 300mpg equivalent should be the target (a Leaf equates to a little over 100mpg at present) with a steady move to rail for longer trips.

Clearly large investments and bold, well-reasoned decisions would be needed, something which the UK hasn't used for a long time.
offroader
Posts: 114
Joined: 18 Dec 2018, 4:47pm

Re: BEVs

Post by offroader »


[XAP]Bob wrote:
offroader wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 11:10am
[XAP]Bob wrote:No there aren’t - at least not sensibly.
For one thing combustion is never perfectly clean, particularly not in small engines - for another the fuel source of choice is currently usually hydrogen - which is generally made by steam reformation.

If you’re going to go to green hydrogen then you are going to use at least twice as much energy to run your vehicle as you would with a BEV.
Hydrogen has a place - but it’s not in vehicles, it’s in seasonal storage.
If perfectly clean is a requirement then you can also rule out the current battery technologies. Lithium extraction and global transportation is far from zero emissions. Lithium battery creation is also very energy intensive. Disposal of dead lithium batteries is currently a problem, albeit one which is solvable. The main advantage I see to a lithium dependency is all the environmental damage is hidden in a far away place where it's easily overlooked by consumers, out of sight, out of mind
No - the main advantage is that it's a one time cost for very long term reuse - and of course lithium isn't the only game in town.
I note that you ignored the steam reformation issue.
We do not currently have a problem free solution to global transportation that I'm aware of. If the consumption of fossil fuels was banned tomorrow how will the components of batteries be delivered from the far side of the world on Monday?
By all your straw men in sailing boats.
We have batteries that can plug the short distance journeys but their lack of energy density makes them problematic for many situations.
We have hydrogen technology which has the energy density but may produce some emissions
We have nuclear technology which is emissions free during it's working life - hopefully.
Many? Care to elaborate?
They deal with basically any on road traffic, and anything on rail.
That leaves aviation and shipping, and whilst nuclear shipping is well established, the risks of piracy are probably too high for it to be taken seriously as a bulk proposition.

Hydrogen's volumetric energy density is atrocious, it might be good gravimetrically, but it's a real pain to store, and an even bigger pain to transport.
I don't see a way the world at large can switch to zero emissions overnight. We have spend centuries developing an addiction to fossil fuels in every aspect of life. Steel requires carbon, plastics are wholly reliant on recycled raptors. The list goes on.
Again - the overnight straw man.
We can't possibly eat this whole elephant in one sitting, so we'll sit and starve instead of biting off what we can achieve.
We must and will find solutions and we absolutely need targets to drive development but along the way some interim compromise seems inevitable.
People seem happy to embrace that compromise to produce lithium batteries, why not consider others?
Because physics isn't on the side of H2 as a domestic transport option.
Apologies, that multi part quote is tricky on a phone, particularly when your username is involved so here's another monoblock reply

However, I would first like to check something.
Are you under the impression that I am anti battery car or Li/Na/Xyz in general?
If you are then I would like to set the record straight.
I believe they are a great innovation that provides a solution to some of the most pressing problems we face. Specifically they are, or at least eventually will be, a hard to beat tool in the fight against local vehicular pollution. I say hard to beat purely because the future is a long time, at the moment they are unbeatable

I don't believe they solve all the transport problems. It's all very well you throwing straw man arguments around but global transportation needs to be solved. I don't believe battery storage solves the trans Atlantic shipping problem and I agree nuclear seems unlikely at this stage. Perhaps you could elaborate on your solution?

Another example I believe to be one of the largest global hurdles not addressed by battery powered vehicles (not mother specifically but the millions globally in a similar position). My elderly mother covers about a thousand miles a year in her car. The majority of her travel is done using either a bus pass or Dr Martens but once or twice a week she likes to go to a semi rural dance of an evening and the late night bus is infrequent and scary. There's also an occasional run to the supermarket etc. Is her only choice to spend £30+k she doesn't have to spare on a new electric car and the currently considerable chunk of co2 that a new car produces? (Spoiler alert, it wasn't the only choice nor was it chosen)
I hope that eventually second hand electric car availability will improve and they will fall into a price range available to those on low/zero income but battery degradation makes this uncertain (that's why I said eventually when I stated my position on electric cars above).Until they do what happens?

How do we deal with millions of old bangers being used throughout the world in places where the new market is considerably smaller than the second hand? Trickle down could take years. Is it possible that a lower but not zero emissions fuel could prove beneficial to emissions reduction even if it's not the best result?

When last I looked there was no multi day "tramping" battery powered heavy haulage vehicle solution to replace diesel powered options. You know, the people who set out on multi day multi drop runs, sleeping in laybys overnight. I appreciate this is a rapidly evolving situation that will eventually work but until enough truck stops and laybys are equipped with sufficient charging points it will be a problem. How do we address this in a timely fashion?

You're correct, I have ignored the steam reformation issue. Of course steam reformation isn't the only game in town. There are electrolysis processes available.
Nor is hydrogen ice the only choice, I picked it as an example of the additional tools available that could be used to plug any holes in battery vehicle coverage

I note you've ignored the massive global consumption of fossil fuel to generate electricity

I've never heard of an overnight straw man but I love an analogy so here goes.
(It's clear I've failed to communicate my point because what I'm trying to say is the polar opposite of what you seem to have heard.)
There is an elephant for sure.
You appear to be saying we only have a knife and fork so let's grab a plate full and get eating. The rest of the elephant will go rotten but we only used our knife and fork and that's what matters.
What I'm trying to say is I agree, we must start eating the elephant.
While we use our knife and fork to eat let's consider other possibilities that may be available.
We know fossil fuel is bad but maybe if we're prepared to conscience some additional considered usage of it we might just be able to cook some elephant. Then maybe we'd have elephant burgers all week and more of the elephant would be gone! Not perfect but maybe we still end up closer to zero elephant
Perhaps we could consider sharing our elephant with the neighbor. Then we might make even better use of it. Of course we know that neighbor is a deceitful elephant breeding son of a gun who needs careful watching but maybe he'll find a way of preserving pachyderms and we'll be able to eat the whole elephant in the fullness of time

Feel free to carry on shouting Straw man at me . It doesn't change the fact that petrochemicals are pervasive and that's something that needs to be addressed if we are ever going to be free of fossil derived products.
Perhaps the bit I worded poorly which led to the apparent miscommunication:-
Battery powered vehicles are a great step to reducing transportation emissions.
I don't think they solve all the squashed dino spin offs like plastic, a task which I forsee taking a long time.


I await your explanation of how BEVs will end our whole dependency on petrochemicals immediately and, for example, stop plastic contamination in the world's water supply with baited breath. Or even a reference to a BEV which uses no petrochemical derived components.





Mmmmmmm, elephant burgers
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

Now may be a good time to buy a second hand BEV. According to Autocar over supply means second hand prices have fallen quite a bit.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/busi ... es-plummet
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: BEVs

Post by francovendee »

pete75 wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 8:12am Now may be a good time to buy a second hand BEV. According to Autocar over supply means second hand prices have fallen quite a bit.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/busi ... es-plummet
Ithink this is good news. :?
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

offroader wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 11:21pm Apologies, that multi part quote is tricky on a phone, particularly when your username is involved so here's another monoblock reply
Yes, yes it is... although I don't actually add names the quote blocks... shh
However, I would first like to check something.
Are you under the impression that I am anti battery car or Li/Na/Xyz in general?
If you are then I would like to set the record straight.
I believe they are a great innovation that provides a solution to some of the most pressing problems we face. Specifically they are, or at least eventually will be, a hard to beat tool in the fight against local vehicular pollution. I say hard to beat purely because the future is a long time, at the moment they are unbeatable
Don't think I have a particular impression for many people.
There is a significant number of people for whom there can be no change to the way they drive, which despite rarely, if ever, exceeding the single charge range of a current BEV means that 1000+ miles range and ten second recharges are absolutely necessary.
If it feels like I'm shouting, it's that attitude I'm reacting to - even when it isn't directly shown, because someone else will shortly come along and say "you didn't pick up on this issue during that conversation" or similar.
I don't believe they solve all the transport problems. It's all very well you throwing straw man arguments around but global transportation needs to be solved. I don't believe battery storage solves the trans Atlantic shipping problem and I agree nuclear seems unlikely at this stage. Perhaps you could elaborate on your solution?
Trans oceanic in general is non trivial.
Though it's probably the second place I'd consider hydrogen to be at least worth exploring - the ships are already massive, so the additional mass of tanks, or even space taken up, is much less significant than for other transport modes.
The true answer is probably to use more, smaller, ships, and to use the wind much more - potentially wind/fuel cell hybrid propulsion.
But to a great extent - it's not an area in which I have any direct links, whereas I do have direct links to personal road transport, as does everyone.
Another example I believe to be one of the largest global hurdles not addressed by battery powered vehicles (not mother specifically but the millions globally in a similar position). My elderly mother covers about a thousand miles a year in her car. The majority of her travel is done using either a bus pass or Dr Martens but once or twice a week she likes to go to a semi rural dance of an evening and the late night bus is infrequent and scary. There's also an occasional run to the supermarket etc. Is her only choice to spend £30+k she doesn't have to spare on a new electric car and the currently considerable chunk of co2 that a new car produces? (Spoiler alert, it wasn't the only choice nor was it chosen)
I hope that eventually second hand electric car availability will improve and they will fall into a price range available to those on low/zero income but battery degradation makes this uncertain (that's why I said eventually when I stated my position on electric cars above).Until they do what happens?
At the moment the second hand market isn't mature. In a slightly peculiar way the longer that continues to be the case the better - because it means that BEVs are lasting much longer than their ICE counterparts used to.
Battery degradation is not particularly uncertain, nor is it as catastrophic as say, head gasket degradation, or cam belt wear etc etc.
The question that is uncertain is whether people will replace the car when the range drops, or whether they'll replace the battery.
The user you describe is one who does substantially less than 50 miles in any given day - so even early generation Nissan Leafs or Peugeot Ions are quite capable machines. They'd be even more so if the dance venue had some AC chargers available in the car park.
That does currently bring the price down to ~£5k which is still more money than they have available, and it probably doesn't yet make economic sense - but actually that's fine, these people are the low users, the people who we need to switch first are the high users.
How do we deal with millions of old bangers being used throughout the world in places where the new market is considerably smaller than the second hand? Trickle down could take years. Is it possible that a lower but not zero emissions fuel could prove beneficial to emissions reduction even if it's not the best result?
Yes - if we can get synth fuels developed then that makes sense, but my gut says that those markets are entirely cost driven, and synth fuels are not going to outcompete on price for a while.
Again - I can only really deal with the bits of the world around me, both from an experience and an influence perspective.
But what's being discussed isn't a way to "lower the emissions of bangers in developing nations" it's a way to carry on using ICE vehicles in wealthy countries that don't want to face any change in their way of life.
When last I looked there was no multi day "tramping" battery powered heavy haulage vehicle solution to replace diesel powered options. You know, the people who set out on multi day multi drop runs, sleeping in laybys overnight. I appreciate this is a rapidly evolving situation that will eventually work but until enough truck stops and laybys are equipped with sufficient charging points it will be a problem. How do we address this in a timely fashion?
"until enough truck stops and laybys are equipped with sufficient charging points it will be a problem"
Equip them... Add panels, turbines, static storage, micro nuclear generators, fat grid connections...
But also - equip the warehouses... because that's where the cab is parked for a while, it's being unloaded and loaded, and that takes time... that's time that should be being used to recharge.
The Australians are doing some interesting battery swap lorry conversions, so you park up, and whilst the cargo is loaded/unloaded the batteries (which are where the old fuel tanks were) are replaced, and the charged in a rack - also some with behind the cab vertically mounted batteries.
The reason they're doing conversions is the sheer number of existing trucks on the market... the replacement rate is simply too low, but conversions allow for a much more efficient use of materials, and a much cheaper "upgrade" for the operators.
You're correct, I have ignored the steam reformation issue. Of course steam reformation isn't the only game in town. There are electrolysis processes available.
Nor is hydrogen ice the only choice, I picked it as an example of the additional tools available that could be used to plug any holes in battery vehicle coverage

I note you've ignored the massive global consumption of fossil fuel to generate electricity
Yes - because we're already well on the way to changing that - and the adoption of BEVs now will, in fact, contribute to the acceleration of that change.
I've never heard of an overnight straw man but I love an analogy so here goes.
(It's clear I've failed to communicate my point because what I'm trying to say is the polar opposite of what you seem to have heard.)
There is an elephant for sure.
You appear to be saying we only have a knife and fork so let's grab a plate full and get eating. The rest of the elephant will go rotten but we only used our knife and fork and that's what matters.
What I'm trying to say is I agree, we must start eating the elephant.
While we use our knife and fork to eat let's consider other possibilities that may be available.
We know fossil fuel is bad but maybe if we're prepared to conscience some additional considered usage of it we might just be able to cook some elephant. Then maybe we'd have elephant burgers all week and more of the elephant would be gone! Not perfect but maybe we still end up closer to zero elephant
Perhaps we could consider sharing our elephant with the neighbor. Then we might make even better use of it. Of course we know that neighbor is a deceitful elephant breeding son of a gun who needs careful watching but maybe he'll find a way of preserving pachyderms and we'll be able to eat the whole elephant in the fullness of time
The "overnight" straw man is just the "But if we stopped doing everything with fossil fuels tomorrow the works would fall apart", which it would, but only because it's not been prepared for at all...
As I mentioned earlier I tend to jump on such half baked arguments quickly, because they're asking a question that makes no sense.
If we got rid of all existing grease how would you cycle to the shop to get some new grease? The premise is absurd, we're clearly not going to stop doing anything fossil fuel related overnight.

BEVs are, as you said earlier, unbeatable (given today's tech), and they clearly provide significant benefits over any other motorised road transport options.
The "long tail" of vehicle lifetime does need addressing, but that's not the focus of many of the "alternative cutlery" proponents, who are in fact looking to keep their elephant trap open for business (ok, I think we've probably stretched this analogy about as thin as we can before descending into surrealism). In the UK (again, focussing on the only place I have significant experience and any influence) we can relegate fossil fuel vehicles to history in a relatively short time period (couple of decades). There will still be some vintage vehicles around, in the same way that I have a friend who still drives an Austin 7, and there are people who still ride horses.
Feel free to carry on shouting Straw man at me . It doesn't change the fact that petrochemicals are pervasive and that's something that needs to be addressed if we are ever going to be free of fossil derived products.
Perhaps the bit I worded poorly which led to the apparent miscommunication:-
Battery powered vehicles are a great step to reducing transportation emissions.
I don't think they solve all the squashed dino spin offs like plastic, a task which I forsee taking a long time.
I try, evidently unsuccessfully, to shout straw man at arguments rather than people.
BEVs are not the be all and end all, they don't affect many of the worst things about our current societal obsession with cars as status symbols, and our inability to consider different modes of transport for different journeys.
They are a massive step, and they will also contribute to lowering grid emissions, and improving grid reliability.

Plastics etc - will take time, but they are a smaller issue than that of burning stuff.
I await your explanation of how BEVs will end our whole dependency on petrochemicals immediately and, for example, stop plastic contamination in the world's water supply with baited breath. Or even a reference to a BEV which uses no petrochemical derived components.
Nothing will end our dependence immediately.
Mmmmmmm, elephant burgers
I think I'd like a steak
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

francovendee wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 9:12am
pete75 wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 8:12am Now may be a good time to buy a second hand BEV. According to Autocar over supply means second hand prices have fallen quite a bit.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/busi ... es-plummet
Ithink this is good news. :?
Really?
It's bad news for the second owner when he comes to sell and the battery's knackered :shock:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

BEVs are, as you said earlier, unbeatable (given today's tech), and they clearly provide significant benefits over any other motorised road transport options.
The "long tail" of vehicle lifetime does need addressing, but that's not the focus of many of the "alternative cutlery" proponents, who are in fact looking to keep their elephant trap open for business (ok, I think we've probably stretched this analogy about as thin as we can before descending into surrealism). In the UK (again, focussing on the only place I have significant experience and any influence) we can relegate fossil fuel vehicles to history in a relatively short time period (couple of decades). There will still be some vintage vehicles around, in the same way that I have a friend who still drives an Austin 7, and there are people who still ride horses.
Credit [XAP]Bob

If it exists then I’d quite like to see some independent and well informed data regarding the duration of the transition period (obviously effective end and start years are needed). In practical terms how long into the future will we be able to fuel and run a petrol powered car?
reohn2 wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 2:50pm
francovendee wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 9:12am
pete75 wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 8:12am Now may be a good time to buy a second hand BEV. According to Autocar over supply means second hand prices have fallen quite a bit.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/busi ... es-plummet
Ithink this is good news. :?
Really?
It's bad news for the second owner when he comes to sell and the battery's knackered :shock:
It’s interesting that prices are falling, perhaps some reality is dawning? To my mind battery life is a real and genuine concern and particularly so to those of us that might buy an older vehicle. I’ve looked about but really haven’t come across people who supply replacement batteries whereas replacement engines and gearboxes are readily available.

Until the battery issue is nailed down - rather than talked down - the risks involved with older BEV’s are just too uncertain and too large to take on, well that’s my judgment for what it’s worth.
Last edited by Carlton green on 25 Mar 2023, 3:41pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 3:31pm ...
If it exists then I’d quite like to see some independent and well informed data regarding the duration of the transition period (obviously effective end and start years are needed). In practical terms how long into the future will we be able to fuel and run a petrol powered car?
The sale of new petrol and Diesel engined cars in the UK is planned to end in 2030. I'd expect 5 years slippage on that. Then at least another 10 years before any major decrease in availability of the fuel. But much longer for any availability at all.

Jonathan
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 3:37pm
Carlton green wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 3:31pm ...
If it exists then I’d quite like to see some independent and well informed data regarding the duration of the transition period (obviously effective end and start years are needed). In practical terms how long into the future will we be able to fuel and run a petrol powered car?
The sale of new petrol and Diesel engined cars in the UK is planned to end in 2030. I'd expect 5 years slippage on that. Then at least another 10 years before any major decrease in availability of the fuel. But much longer for any availability at all.

Jonathan
Thanks, something upwards of two decades from now was my own estimation … so if I live that long the effective end date will be likely be around when I give up driving. It would be really interesting to have data though and there must be some very well informed - but still neutral - projections out there. Other than the green feel good factor - which I don’t belittle - I’m seeing much risk(s), significant expense and too little reward for shifting to a BEV.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 3:31pmIt’s interesting that prices are falling, perhaps some reality is dawning? To my mind battery life is a real and genuine concern and particularly so to those of us that might buy an older vehicle. I’ve looked about but really haven’t come across people who supply replacement batteries whereas replacement engines and gearboxes are readily available.

Until the battery issue is nailed down - rather than talked down - the risks involved with older BEV’s are just too uncertain and too large to take on, well that’s my judgment for what it’s worth.
Nearly all ICE-engined cars will never have their engines or gearboxes replaced. Nearly all battery-powered cars will never have their batteries replaced.

What's your estimate of the degradation of batteries? There are plenty of "well-informed projections" out there...

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 3:48pm ...
Other than the green feel good factor - which I don’t belittle - I’m seeing much risk(s), significant expense and too little reward for shifting to a BEV.
Do you think that they have lower lifetime emissions of carbon dioxide than ICEVs? Or is that just "green feel good"?

Thanks

Jonathan
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 3:59pm
Carlton green wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 3:48pm ...
Other than the green feel good factor - which I don’t belittle - I’m seeing much risk(s), significant expense and too little reward for shifting to a BEV.
Do you think that they have lower lifetime emissions of carbon dioxide than ICEVs? Or is that just "green feel good"?

Thanks

Jonathan
I’m honestly doubtful that BEV’s are significantly greener overall than ICEV’s. I wouldn’t regard lifetime emissions of CO2 as being either the full picture or a well quantified measure. The “feel good” is more societal based than anything else. Of course those things have been said before and I’m not seeing merit in going over old ground. What I’m interested in is trying to see how things will likely pan out over the coming years, obviously putting ideals and personal views to one side.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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