BEVs

[pwa]

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
are quiet and smooth
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
can supply energy to the home and Grid
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable

That list of options is silly.

Its all about toxic exhaust emissions isn;t it?

BEVs don't solve any of the other problems with car use - congestion, resource use, obesity etc........but they do go a long wat to dealing with the toxic exhaust emission problem.

The diesel lovers on here need to face reality - once your dieselmotor is 10 or 15 years old with 100,000 odd miles it becomes massively polluting - belching carcinogenic filth which everyone else, including vulnerable children, have to breathe. The junk has no place on the roads of a civilised country, not least because it makes cycling and walking a lot less healthy and pleasant than it should be.

The emissions of BEVs on the other hand do not increase as the vehicle ages - and this is the obvious advantage of BEVs

The smelliest diesel vehicles around here tend to be the school buses that clog the streets twice daily, so I'm blaming the kids for damaging my lungs. I'll get my coat......

[wheelyhappy99]

There are also persistant rumours that there will soon be great breakthroughs in battery technology, lower weight, higher power capacity, gretaer longevity etc. You're probably wise to wait. If, as doesn't seem unlikley, there's a big improvement in battery technology in the near future, current BEVs will lose much value quickly.

With huge investment and R&D being undertaken by several companies it's quite conceivable that battery technology will improve, though I don't intend to delay moving to BEV on the off chance it happens the next day. The reduction in the cost of energy (over £2k a year for me, assuming I use Octopus plus a bit of our surplus PV output and roadside charging for long journeys) is a known gain.

[Mark R]

The smelliest diesel vehicles around here tend to be the school buses that clog the streets twice daily, so I'm blaming the kids for damaging my lungs. I'll get my coat......

You make a good point about school buses being perhaps the filthiest vehicles of all. It certainly emphasises the point about diesel engines becoming massively polluting once they have significant wear and tear......and the toxic emissions from an Electric bus? Would they increase as the vehicle got older?

[wheelyhappy99]

As the owner, still, of a diesel I agree completely. It will go as soon as I can organise a suitable BEV replacement, currently looking like this summer. When I bought it the belief was they were less polluting. We all know better now.

What I find very noticeable when out in the lanes on a bike is the reek of unburnt fuel and fumes from passing old cars, petrol as well as smoky landrovers etc, hanging about for ages before the poliution spreads and is diluted. Anything pre catalyst is the same. How long before we decide they're just unacceptable I wonder?

The folk I don't understand are those with (clearly) ample funds still buying ICE Chelsea tractors. Superseded technology. A bit like buying a canal boat in the railway age.

[Carlton green]

The smelliest diesel vehicles around here tend to be the school buses that clog the streets twice daily, so I'm blaming the kids for damaging my lungs. I'll get my coat......

You make a good point about school buses being perhaps the filthiest vehicles of all. It certainly emphasises the point about diesel engines becoming massively polluting once they have significant wear and tear......and the toxic emissions from an Electric bus? Would they increase as the vehicle got older?

The better point would be why are we busing children around the country to school rather than teaching them locally? Pollution could be very quickly reduced if we simply looked at sorting out requirements to travel - remove the need for a bus of any sort.

[Nearholmer]

The better point would be why are we busing children around the country to school rather than teaching them locally?

Because building, equipping and staffing a secondary school in every village wouldn’t really be viable.

Of course, areas that have grammar schools rack up more bus miles than those that don’t.

[Carlton green]

The better point would be why are we busing children around the country to school rather than teaching them locally?

Because building, equipping and staffing a secondary school in every village wouldn’t really be viable.

Of course, areas that have grammar schools rack up more bus miles than those that don’t.

That’s an interesting take on things but I feel sure that you know how flawed that simple stance is. Half of my local comprehensive school is made up of children bused in from ten and more miles away where they live in a large Town with many Schools. The Schools in that Town are poor in various ways whilst my local Comp is not too bad.

In times past my local community, which isn’t a large place, had both a Comprehensive/Secondary Modern and Grammar School, there was no school bus. Children walked and cycled to School, as I’ve been told by aged residents of where I live.

BEV’s, we simply don’t need them. Some might have desirable features but the best way to reduce travel pollution is via structural change (to life / lives) which removes the need to travel by motorised vehicles.

[Nearholmer]

I feel sure that you know how flawed that simple stance is

I didn’t, but I live and learn.

Here there is no bussing within the unitary authority area except to get children from outlying villages into the city, and a small number of children to grammar school miles away, because there is some agreement going back years to before comprehensives were introduced that a few places will be available in the next local authority area. The vast majority of secondary pupils walk or cycle to school, but some parents opt for schools a bit further across the city, in which case the children use the ordinary local buses.

The next authority over is still grammar, and has a much larger rural area, so they have a lot more bussing.

I wasn’t aware that bussing occurred between towns with comprehensives ….. it didn’t where I grew, let alone where I live now.

[reohn2]

Really - yes.
Depends how many minutes... a modern car can charge up three hours worth of fuel in ten minutes, just enough time for a loo break

Only if I'm prepared to spend £30k+ on the car in the first place, which I'm not because a BEV won't serve my driving mileage

Who said anything about spending £30k+ if you live at the tail end of vehicle lifetime (which you frankly admit that you do) then you're not going to get a modern EV for several years yet.
But to claim that no BEV can charge in "minutes" is plain wrong.

What's this tail end of vehicle lifetime you speak of?
I bought a ten year old vehicle,because it was low mileage FSH and suited myself and my now disabled wife,when I set out to spend twice that amount on a similar Smax,the fact that it cost £6k was a real bonus and a deal I couldn't turn down.
I would need to spend £30k at least for a BEV that would do the same job and would very doubtfully tow my caravan any real distance.
Should as I mentioned previously buy a campervan we'll be keeping the Smax because it's such a damned good car and a similarly priced BEV would be crap by comparison.
As for charging a £4k BEV,how long and what range would it give?

Massively oversized tesla pickup truck - will have Megawatt charging capability (which is somewhat ridiculous)

Ah,I see.I couldn't agree more,such vehicles are for big boys who want big toys and as you say ridiculous

I've never been to a petrol station that doesn't smell of petrol

A faint smell maybe but it isn't bad most are quite clean and tidy little or no smell

I fill up from the comfort of my own bed... but 250 miles between charges is quite reasonable - there are 88 vehicles with a range over 250 miles on the ev database - from £40k new

Charging whilst you're sleeping is a bonus but I can fill up my ICE car as quick as 5 to 10minutes
So I would need to spend £40k to get decent comfort and range.

I know you don't want to buy a new car, but for comparison the bottom of the line SMax is £38k

You seem to be missing the point that I've bought a very good Smax with great spec and in immaculate condition for £6k that's so far,@94k miles,40k miles down the road,cost me me only diesel and servicing.
Admittedly a BEV would've been cheaper to run fuelwise but overall taking in vehicle cost would've cost me far more to buy and still couldn't tow my caravan!

Actually pretty rare, obviously when it happens then it gets commented on - but it is rare.

From what I've been told by BEV owners who charge their car when out and about it happens a lot less rare than you claim and when there's not the infrasture being built,promised by Boris,it's pretty annoying

That's the thing, you conveniently forget about the times when petrol stations have run out of fuel, or have queues, or that time when you accidentally put petrol in a diesel tank. It's not wilful self deception, you're just used to those failure modes

I've filled my car up with the wrong fuel once in the 50+years I've been driving,and I have never yet driven into a fuel station to find it without fuel for my car.

how often do you talk about when you just drive into a petrol station and filled up? Never - same way I don't talk about the times when I just drive up to a charger and use it... because it's a non event - and it's almost always a non event

.
Agreed.

I don't understand the question - there are ~8k petrol stations in the UK and ~23k charging locations, with over 60k connectors across 39k devices

How many pumps at the petrol and diesel stations?

Some of those devices will, like a petrol pump, only be able to use one of their connectors at a time - others can use both.
Do they all work 100% of the time... depends which ones you use - AC chargers (the majority) are very reliable, and the better networks (MFG, instavolt) are utterly reliable

I can point you to two charging stations in my area that only a couple of charge points are working out of four and that's me finding out purely by chance,how many other locally is anyone's guess.I'm also told there's a shortage of tech staff to deal with the faults on charging stations.
.

I came out after a few hours and the car was nearly full again

I thought you said you could charge up in minutes?

It's a <i>[rude word removed]</i> pain to take a wheelchair on the tube, so I drive in

I've no problem with wheelchair users,MrsR2 is a wheelchair user,taking their vehicle into towns and cities,they're one of few exceptions were private cars banned from cities.

Museums are really good places to visit, and the Exhibition road area is stuffed full of them after the great exhibition.
It took me less than a minute to charge up - I just plugged in and carried on with what I was doing. The street side charger I used was an AC (i.e. only 28mph) charger, so the few hours I was there was plenty to replenish the charge

So it took hours to charge,not minutes?

If you're going to throw stones at BEVs you really do need to understand the technology a little better

I'm not throwing stones,what I am saying is they don't work for me and I strongly suspect not for many many other car users,if and when they do or my circumstances change they might,but presently they don't.

Oh, so they don't need to carry a can in the boot? You just said they did

Only if they're as anal as you claim them to be about running out of fuel,it was a safety net for such unreasonable fools

There is a massive difference between a dedicated fuel tank and a loose can of fuel

Not if it's in a dedicated fuel container stored and secured correctly in the boot

.every building can be a charging station

Every building can be but ever building isn't and if it were and every car owner's car was a BEV would there be enough power in the grid to handle all the charging?

Have you ever actually used one?

I've driven one yes but I'm quite happy with my £6k diesel Smax and will be for the for the next 100,000 miles unless it pops it's clogs sooner in which case I'll look for something similar,but I won't be spending £30k on a BEV which won't serve my motoring needs.

Bob
To be clear,I've no animosity toward you or BEVs if what you have works for you all well and good but they don't work for me and you won't sell me one,we've both spent a lot of time trying to convince each other what both of us are happy and won't change so I'll leave it at that.

[francovendee]

I think reohn2's post sums the situation up for many people. Cost and practicality for them rules out the EV. Some get all defensive about EV's but they aren't the solution for everyone.
I own up to not having driven a BEV but travelled many times in my son in law's one. It's a very nice car and he loves it. he does a daily 15 mile journey into London. It's only when he has to go on longer journeys that his anxiety sets in. He's not yet run out of juice but was down to 10 mile one time when his planned 'top up' point wasn't working.

[al_yrpal]

I have decided to get a BEV. My spec...

Cost no more than £5k
Range 750miles but I will settle for 500 with heater and lights on continuously
Able to fully charge in 5 minutes
More than 5k charging stations nationally, each with 6 charging sockets.
Electricity cost per mile less than ICE vehicle of similar size.

Al

[pwa]

I think reohn2's post sums the situation up for many people. Cost and practicality for them rules out the EV. Some get all defensive about EV's but they aren't the solution for everyone.
I own up to not having driven a BEV but travelled many times in my son in law's one. It's a very nice car and he loves it. he does a daily 15 mile journey into London. It's only when he has to go on longer journeys that his anxiety sets in. He's not yet run out of juice but was down to 10 mile one time when his planned 'top up' point wasn't working.

Surely that problem, which does exist because I have heard it from other people who use EVs, is something that will rapidly diminish as infrastructure expands with EV use. I'd be worried about it if I were planning to buy an EV now, but I don't anticipate it being a concern further down the line.

[Jdsk]

There are also persistant rumours that there will soon be great breakthroughs in battery technology, lower weight, higher power capacity, gretaer longevity etc. You're probably wise to wait. If, as doesn't seem unlikley, there's a big improvement in battery technology in the near future, current BEVs will lose much value quickly.

With huge investment and R&D being undertaken by several companies it's quite conceivable that battery technology will improve, though I don't intend to delay moving to BEV on the off chance it happens the next day. The reduction in the cost of energy (over £2k a year for me, assuming I use Octopus plus a bit of our surplus PV output and roadside charging for long journeys) is a known gain.

I'm not expecting dramatic breakthroughs in batteries for car-like objects. Just lots of incremental advances. Current (!) developments of interest include removing the need for cobalt and improving anode performance either by novel preparation of the graphite or alternative materials.

And the reduction in damage to the environment as the generation of the electricity moves towards renewable sources.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

I think reohn2's post sums the situation up for many people. Cost and practicality for them rules out the EV. Some get all defensive about EV's but they aren't the solution for everyone.
I own up to not having driven a BEV but travelled many times in my son in law's one. It's a very nice car and he loves it. he does a daily 15 mile journey into London. It's only when he has to go on longer journeys that his anxiety sets in. He's not yet run out of juice but was down to 10 mile one time when his planned 'top up' point wasn't working.

Surely that problem, which does exist because I have heard it from other people who use EVs, is something that will rapidly diminish as infrastructure expands with EV use. I'd be worried about it if I were planning to buy an EV now, but I don't anticipate it being a concern further down the line.

Yes, it will diminish as even more charging points appear. (And this should not be left to opportunistic installations: it needs national policy and support as part of the management of the transition.)

And, as discussed above, it goes down with experience of running a BEV.

Shirley

[pwa]

As I have said before, whilst I have a driveway and the ability tohave a charging point at home, I know of numerous communities where most houses are in terraces, without private parking, and current Government policy seems to be destined to leave them high and dry when the changeover happens. I am concerned that the Government and local planners are not working like the clappers to find charging solutions that work in all communities, rather than just those where people are lucky enough to have their own plot of land to charge on.