BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 5:53pm ...
EVs produce less carbon dioxide than ICEVs over the vehicle's life.
...
al_yrpal wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 6:21pmDo they?
Here's a calculator, as discussed upthread:
https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/ ... nization=0

Please could you run comparisons for your vehicles and usage of choice and post the results.

Thanks

Jonathan
Carlton green
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Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 5:02pm
Carlton green wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 4:51pm
Jdsk wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 4:33pm That day has dawned. The best accessible summary that I know is from Greenpeace:

"Electric cars are greener than petrol cars – but they’re far from perfect. Switching to electric cars is essential, but it’s not enough. Our transport system needs a rethink."
https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/elec ... trol-cars/

And that's how this sort of stuff should be written up: identify the major issues and include the major advantages and disadvantages and all of the other things that need to be done. All in one place. With supporting evidence.
Nearly right, well nearly right as a start point for discussion and further analysis. The bit that’s wrong is that Greenpeace are not impartial authors, they already have their own agenda and perception of what the best direction of change is and their aim is to promote it, full stop. Now have some impartial, comprehensive and technically sound articles and we’ll all be better informed.
And one of the many advantages of writing as Greenpeace did and Atkinson didn't is that it makes it much easier to disagree and for others to assess the merits of that disagreement.

Jonathan

Perhaps I misunderstood you? Didn’t you originally hold up the Greenpeace article as excellence? I found it pretty poor quality.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 6:29pm
Jdsk wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 5:02pm
Carlton green wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 4:51pm Nearly right, well nearly right as a start point for discussion and further analysis. The bit that’s wrong is that Greenpeace are not impartial authors, they already have their own agenda and perception of what the best direction of change is and their aim is to promote it, full stop. Now have some impartial, comprehensive and technically sound articles and we’ll all be better informed.
And one of the many advantages of writing as Greenpeace did and Atkinson didn't is that it makes it much easier to disagree and for others to assess the merits of that disagreement.
Perhaps I misunderstood you? Didn’t you originally hold up the Greenpeace article as excellence? I found it pretty poor quality.
I praised how it drew the issues together, and several other aspects of its format. Especially in comparison to that of Atkinson's article and to how this thread has evolved.

What did you think was "poor quality"?

Thanks

Jonathan
Carlton green
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Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Poor quality, pretty much all of it. A couple of pages of lightweight stuff when they could have been so much more useful.

Heavy criticism of large BEV’s would have been a good start and likewise demands for vehicles to be capped on (engine) power another. Recognition of realistic technology transition times and improvements in IC engine efficiencies would have been good too. Rather than electric vehicles the UK needs less reasons for daily travel and their article could have laboured that point more. The greenest journey is one that you don’t have to make and social restructuring could vastly reduce emissions due to transport - reducing the number of miles driven is at least as important as reducing emissions per mile.

I’d like to see Greenpeace demanding an end of leisure travel by fossil fuelled aeroplanes planes and no new fossil fuelled aeroplanes being built post 2030, because if the man in the street can’t buy a fossil fuelled car then someone else shouldn’t be able to buy a fossil fuelled aeroplane - tough luck if your preferred mode of transport won’t run on batteries ‘cause one rule should apply for all.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Biospace
Posts: 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

I think both Greenpeace and Rowan Atkinson make very pertinent and valid points. And that if they banged heads, they'd agree on 99% of matters relating to motorised transport.

Millions have been led to believe that BEVs are somehow an answer to the planet's problems and believe they are genuinely the "Zero Emissions" thing which government describes them as. Others refuse to believe a 15 year old Toyota Yaris may be less of a polluter than a Tesla or other massive BEV, and won't debate when challenged, such is the control over their minds.

Too many, often those who have little understanding of practical matters, of how heavier vehicles use more resources, need more energy to make them work, create extra pollution even once the extra energy has been used to both make and power them believe that because an electric motor is 90-something percent efficient compared with an ICE at 40%-ish, we've solved the problem.

The most EV-infatuated don't discuss how the horrendous environmental pollution and abuse of those who have no protection mining raw materials can be reduced or how many extra nuclear power plants may be required, perhaps this is inconsequential to their comfortable lives - so far, far away - and nothing compared with the terrible fumes they imagine as being belched out of vehicle exhausts.

One wood fire will create more pollution than many HGVs, which in turn pollute tens of times more than if their freight were carried by rail.

If we cover every hillside and hilltop, every suitable mile of coast, every river, every roof, every carpark and more with renewable energy generators, install enormous batteries and spinning flywheels to store some of the energy for later, we'll use it all and demand even more with the fossil fuel induced mindset we have at the moment.

We should decide what energy we can sustainably capture and live within our means. Until more appreciate basic facts, the discussion - including this thread - will be limited.
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al_yrpal
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Re: BEVs

Post by al_yrpal »

The Institution of Structural Engineers have expressed fears about the strength of older car parks and electric cars. The Toyota bZ4X FWD weighs almost 2 tonnes, about 500 kg more than my Audi A4 clone and nearly a tonne more than a Ford Cortina!

I was quite surprised to hear that this monster only has a range of 150 miles in cold weather?

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Biospace
I agree with you but the problem as so often is the case is that profit comes above all else in a capitalist society with no bounderies on either morals or profit made.
Until such society is governed but morals and profit limited for the good of all we as a species or at least most of us,are doomed.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Biospace
Posts: 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

reohn2 wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 9:27am Until such society is governed but morals and profit limited for the good of all we as a species or at least most of us,are doomed.
I believe external costs need to be taken into account in the economic system which is a big challenge, but one we duck at our peril.

The society of excess, waste and opportunistic wilful harm caused to the planet and its lifeforms I find deeply unpleasant and although it has always existed, with 8 billion humans aspiring to a large car, fridge and ever more consumerism it cannot continue without pretty awful consequences.
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simonineaston
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Re: BEVs

Post by simonineaston »

without pretty awful consequences.
Well, to be fair, only for us! Once we're all dead, the planet will simply revert to its previous state, as if we never existed. Good fertiliser, mind...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Biospace wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 1:30pm
reohn2 wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 9:27am Until such society is governed but morals and profit limited for the good of all we as a species or at least most of us,are doomed.
I believe external costs need to be taken into account in the economic system which is a big challenge, but one we duck at our peril.

The society of excess, waste and opportunistic wilful harm caused to the planet and its lifeforms I find deeply unpleasant and although it has always existed, with 8 billion humans aspiring to a large car, fridge and ever more consumerism it cannot continue without pretty awful consequences.
Yep that about zums it up!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

simonineaston wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 1:38pm
without pretty awful consequences.
Well, to be fair, only for us! Once we're all dead, the planet will simply revert to its previous state, as if we never existed. Good fertiliser, mind...
:wink:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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Cowsham
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Re: BEVs

Post by Cowsham »

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

Are quiet when they pass us on our bicycles so we can hear ourselves gabbing as we ride 3 abreast. :lol:
I am here. Where are you?
Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

You couldn't make it up, part 1,764:

The Daily Mail has asked some experts to check Atkinson's article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... duped.html

Experts, huh!

Jonathan
Biospace
Posts: 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 6 Jun 2023, 10:31am You couldn't make it up, part 1,764:

The Daily Mail has asked some experts to check Atkinson's article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... duped.html

Experts, huh!

Jonathan
Is this the DM simply making sure it is seen to ridicule the Guardian, while printing many articles sceptical of BEVs?
Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Biospace wrote: 6 Jun 2023, 1:13pm
Jdsk wrote: 6 Jun 2023, 10:31am You couldn't make it up, part 1,764:

The Daily Mail has asked some experts to check Atkinson's article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... duped.html

Experts, huh!
Is this the DM simply making sure it is seen to ridicule the Guardian, while printing many articles sceptical of BEVs?
That was my guess for the motivation, rather than any concern for the truth or regard for the environment.

"Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows.”

Jonathan
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