BEVs

[[XAP]Bob]

The prices have been artificially high for a while due to supply issues - of course the prices are falling.

[UpWrong]

Sodium-ion batteries look like they are worth waiting for: cheaper, quicker charging and safer.
https://www.ediweekly.com/first-vehicle ... own-in-uk/

"The world's biggest EV battery makers CATL and BYD are also on the cusp of mass Na-ion battery production, with BYD in particular expected to start this year."

https://www.notebookcheck.net/First-ele ... 298.0.html

[[XAP]Bob]

They're already in production cars.
Slightly lower density, but other advantages are very substantial.

I should probably clarify - first gen battery density is a little under current gen lithium ion density... give it a couple of years and it might be on par.

[Carlton green]

Sodium-ion batteries look like they are worth waiting for: cheaper, quicker charging and safer.
https://www.ediweekly.com/first-vehicle ... own-in-uk/

"The world's biggest EV battery makers CATL and BYD are also on the cusp of mass Na-ion battery production, with BYD in particular expected to start this year."

https://www.notebookcheck.net/First-ele ... 298.0.html

Thank you, a helpful post. There are certainly going to be some big changes with battery technology in the coming decade.

The impression that I’m getting is as with other rapidly changing technologies: limit your investment to what you can afford as a total loss, keep an eye on the market and defer new manufacture purchases for as long as is practical.

[[XAP]Bob]

Sodium-ion batteries look like they are worth waiting for: cheaper, quicker charging and safer.
https://www.ediweekly.com/first-vehicle ... own-in-uk/

"The world's biggest EV battery makers CATL and BYD are also on the cusp of mass Na-ion battery production, with BYD in particular expected to start this year."

https://www.notebookcheck.net/First-ele ... 298.0.html

Thank you, a helpful post. There are certainly going to be some big changes with battery technology in the coming decade.

The impression that I’m getting is as with other rapidly changing technologies: limit your investment to what you can afford as a total loss, keep an eye on the market and defer new manufacture purchases for as long as is practical.

There comes a point (and I'd say we're already there) that you buy what you can when you need to buy something.
If you always wait for tomorrow's new tech then you'll never get anything...

[Biospace]

If you look around there are gloves provided, and wipes.
The floor is generally wet with a film of oil/fuel, usually mixed in with some sand to "clean it up"
The handles of the pumps are covered in a thin film of what I assume is condensed hydrocarbons - certainly smells like it.
You have the exhaust from all the idling vehicles waiting to get to a pump, and well as those driving in, or idling while they do their makeup (or whatever it is some people do before moving off)

All of this is "just normal" so you don't realise how unpleasant it is - you are the proverbial frog in a boiling pot.

That, and comments about suspension components which only ever fail on naturally-unreliable ICEvs did make me chuckle, it's remarkable how the human brain works.

Yes, I'm sure we could all find some heaving, horrible Tesco filling station where people spit on the darky sandy floor and lock their cars before moving to lift the pump handle but there's invariably a Shell or BP garage within a couple of miles where the clientele are very nearly as well-behaved and smart as at the Waitrose EV charging station.

I think most of us are a 'frog in a boiling pot' unless we directly control a large part of the energy we use, whether our food or energy for our cars and homes.

[[XAP]Bob]

The suspension failure could have occurred on any vehicle, but it's both more likely, and importantly is an unexpected expense, on a vehicle which isn't covered by warranty. The comparison there was between a ten year old car and a brand new one, not between BEV and ICE.


I'm sure the users at your local garage are well behaved - I never said they weren't.
But you're still pumping volatile organic compounds around, so the area is always going to smell of fumes.
The floor is always going to get covered in a film of filth from the exhaust pipes directed at it, and from the general fumes condensing, and that is inevitably treated with sand (never seen a forecourt without sand buckets).
The pump handles are constantly having fumes pour out around them, so on any reasonably cool day those fumes inevitably condense and then the next user ends up with them on their hands.
The waiting vehicles, and vehicles moving through are always going to generate exhaust to add to the mix.

An EV station... no exhaust on the floor, nothing smelly being moved around, nothing to spill out over the connectors.

As I said - having not been to a liquid fuel forecourt in over two years it was somewhat of a shock to the system, and I used to use that forecourt frequently. It's not one that's particularly worse than any other.

[Biospace]

The suspension failure could have occurred on any vehicle, but it's both more likely, and importantly is an unexpected expense, on a vehicle which isn't covered by warranty. The comparison there was between a ten year old car and a brand new one, not between BEV and ICE.

An EV station... no exhaust on the floor, nothing smelly being moved around, nothing to spill out over the connectors.

Iirc there was a very large and faulty batch of road springs made in Europe 15-20 years ago. Was it one of these? I don't think age was a particularly important factor in their failure.

I agree, if you accidentally pump diesel fuel anywhere other than where it is intended, it's not pleasant stuff. But the smell of car exhausts is a thing from the past, unless an engine has been started from cold. As the scientists remind us, it's pollution from tyres which is much more of a concern. Heavy, high torque vehicles wear tyres most quickly.

As I say, if we wish to avoid being a frog in a boiling pot, we need to remove Government from our energy supply chain. At present, they're integrating themselves more in these things, something we should all be aware of. It's not happening by accident.

[Carlton green]

Sodium-ion batteries look like they are worth waiting for: cheaper, quicker charging and safer.
https://www.ediweekly.com/first-vehicle ... own-in-uk/

"The world's biggest EV battery makers CATL and BYD are also on the cusp of mass Na-ion battery production, with BYD in particular expected to start this year."

https://www.notebookcheck.net/First-ele ... 298.0.html

Thank you, a helpful post. There are certainly going to be some big changes with battery technology in the coming decade.

The impression that I’m getting is as with other rapidly changing technologies: limit your investment to what you can afford as a total loss, keep an eye on the market and defer new manufacture purchases for as long as is practical.

There comes a point (and I'd say we're already there) that you buy what you can when you need to buy something.
If you always wait for tomorrow's new tech then you'll never get anything...

Well, if you’ve money to waste then someone will gladly take it off of you. On the other hand if you enjoy a comfortable life that’s made possible by being as savy as is practical with your money then it’s best to be a late adopter … and to pick carefully from what products are available. In general folk tend to buy a lot better than they really need, and folk tend to not think far enough into the future with what they buy - both waste time, money and effort. Of course some technologies are more mature than others, IMHO BEV’s have a long way to go yet. That’s not to say that a second hand BEV, at the right price, wouldn’t be a sensible enough purchase, but with future change(s) in mind spend no more than you can afford to and are prepared to accept as a total loss.

[[XAP]Bob]

I'm sorry - exhaust still stinks, it might be less bad now than it used to be, but they still stink.

I agree, if you accidentally pump diesel fuel anywhere other than where it is intended, it's not pleasant stuff.

If you pump it into the fuel tank through the designated nozzle you end up with it on your hands... that's how volatile liquids behave.
We don't have fume capture hoods on our fuel nozzles, and we don't let them latch on - you have to stand there with fumes rolling over your hand(s) and clothes.



No idea why the spring failed - it might have been in that batch, I never found out about it if it was.
But it did require than I had it fixed, and it was a single example in the list of repairs which I have had to pay for over the years. The last ICE vehicle I had with a warranty (paid for) the warranty proved very useful, since the garage decided during a regular service that the head gasket was looking a little close for their comfort - they therefore arranged to switch it out (and since the timing belt was off anyway they asked if I'd like to replace that for the cost of the belt, saving the cost of labour 20 thousand miles hence).
But warranties on pre-owned vehicles are, in my experience, rare and somewhat expensive (I was doing over 700 miles a week in that vehicle, so it was relatively easily justified in terms of cost).

And everyone keeps on about tyres - a tyre weighs about 3 kg, about 1 kg of which might be tread - that tyre (and it's three siblings) will last ~25k miles - so that's 0.16g per mile at the most for a car.
You could look at brakes alongside the tyres - 8 pads of about 300g each is 2.4kg, so let's assume 1kg of material from those - but only for an ICE, the BEV would barely be using the pads.

And EVs don't, contrary to the common myth, burn through several sets of tyres each time you go to the supermarket... they last about the same as tyres on any other vehicle - i.e. it varies wildly depending on how leaden your right foot is.
https://www.nokiantyres.com/company/new ... long-time/


It really doesn't matter though - compared with the 625 gallons, or 531kg of fuel which would be burnt, using ~2 tonnes of oxygen from the atmosphere - that's 2.5 tonnes.

It's not even close, it doesn't even make sense to use the same unit.

[[XAP]Bob]

Thank you, a helpful post. There are certainly going to be some big changes with battery technology in the coming decade.

The impression that I’m getting is as with other rapidly changing technologies: limit your investment to what you can afford as a total loss, keep an eye on the market and defer new manufacture purchases for as long as is practical.

There comes a point (and I'd say we're already there) that you buy what you can when you need to buy something.
If you always wait for tomorrow's new tech then you'll never get anything...

Well, if you’ve money to waste then someone will gladly take it off of you. On the other hand if you enjoy a comfortable life that’s made possible by being as savy as is practical with your money then it’s best to be a late adopter … and to pick carefully from what products are available. In general folk tend to buy a lot better than they really need, and folk tend to not think far enough into the future with what they buy - both waste time, money and effort. Of course some technologies are more mature than others, IMHO BEV’s have a long way to go yet. That’s not to say that a second hand BEV, at the right price, wouldn’t be a sensible enough purchase, but with future change(s) in mind spend no more than you can afford to and are prepared to accept as a total loss.

At some point though - you have to buy something, and you choose from what's available... if you always wait for tomorrow's breakthrough you'd still be using a bakelite consumer unit and manually replacing the fuse wires.
At some point you decide to add a circuit and replace the whole thing with a new consumer unit, and MCBs with an RCD or two as well.

If you want to buy a computer for something you don't always wait for next year's model which will be faster... because next year the same will be true, next year's model will be faster, so you wait and the next year the same is true.
At some point you buy what's available.

[Carlton green]

There comes a point (and I'd say we're already there) that you buy what you can when you need to buy something.
If you always wait for tomorrow's new tech then you'll never get anything...

Well, if you’ve money to waste then someone will gladly take it off of you. On the other hand if you enjoy a comfortable life that’s made possible by being as savy as is practical with your money then it’s best to be a late adopter … and to pick carefully from what products are available. In general folk tend to buy a lot better than they really need, and folk tend to not think far enough into the future with what they buy - both waste time, money and effort. Of course some technologies are more mature than others, IMHO BEV’s have a long way to go yet. That’s not to say that a second hand BEV, at the right price, wouldn’t be a sensible enough purchase, but with future change(s) in mind spend no more than you can afford to and are prepared to accept as a total loss.

At some point though - you have to buy something, and you choose from what's available... if you always wait for tomorrow's breakthrough you'd still be using a bakelite consumer unit and manually replacing the fuse wires.
At some point you decide to add a circuit and replace the whole thing with a new consumer unit, and MCBs with an RCD or two as well.

If you want to buy a computer for something you don't always wait for next year's model which will be faster... because next year the same will be true, next year's model will be faster, so you wait and the next year the same is true.
At some point you buy what's available.

“ At some point you buy what's available”. Yes, assuming you need to do so, you buy from what’s available.

Next year’s model (of anything) may or may not be better, that depends upon how mature the technology is. However, so long as what’s available comfortably meets your needs, the price is acceptable and the price is within what you’re prepared to accept as a total loss then deferring a purchase has limited value.

Within the foreseeable future I don’t need a replacement car, when I do then I’ll investigate further and buy something from within what’s available to me at that time. Of course the price will need to be right, of course whatever it is will need to meet what I consider to be my needs and of course I won’t limit myself to ICEs …

[Biospace]

I'm sorry - exhaust still stinks, it might be less bad now than it used to be, but they still stink.

I agree, if you accidentally pump diesel fuel anywhere other than where it is intended, it's not pleasant stuff.

If you pump it into the fuel tank through the designated nozzle you end up with it on your hands... that's how volatile liquids behave.
We don't have fume capture hoods on our fuel nozzles, and we don't let them latch on - you have to stand there with fumes rolling over your hand(s) and clothes.

Petrol is regarded as volatile, diesel isn't - it doesn't readily turn to vapour at our planet's temperatures.

And everyone keeps on about tyres

It seems that everything to do with conventional cars is bad, and everything to do with BEVs is good in your world, unfortunately tyres are used by all and there is general recognition that the heavier and the more torque a vehicle has, the faster its tyres will wear out.

The scientists wouldn't be so concerned about tyre emissions if they weren't posing us all with an enormous and as yet, unregulated pollution problem. It's not just the particulate matter which is a problem to surface and marine life, but the energy involved in harvesting the natural materials, in making the synthetic materials and in construction. And then in disposal.

Rubber crumb is being used for artificial turf - a neat way of disposing of a highly toxic waste material - but already, the Dutch are banning it - including removing pitches made with it, they're so concerned with the levels of cancer measured.

The Citroën concept car in this topic viewtopic.php?t=155637 makes use of tyres which can last for 500,000km with the tread being replaced as necessary. https://www.goodyear.com.my/goodyear-to ... itroen-oli

[[XAP]Bob]

Both are sufficiently volatile to end up fuming out of the tank, and covering the nozzle and person pumping them.
It's quite easy to test this - just pump diesel and then smell your hand, I could smell it, and feel it, until I got home and washed.


Not everything to do with BEVs is good - but to pick on tyres when they last as long on a BEV as on an ICEV vehicle, and contribute a thousand times less pollution than the products of combustion from an ICEV is to pick at a splinter in the BEV whilst ignoring the tree growing out of the ICEV.
But yes - there are very few good things about ICE cars... they certainly wouldn't be allowed if invented now.

And as you point out - newer tyre technologies are coming along which will do the same job on ICE or BEV - but let's not forget that many people (here and elsewhere) seem to be under the impression that burning stuff is "just as good" as a BEV.

Yes, ideally we'd get smaller vehicles, but that's not a BEV thing it's a car industry thing.
Yes, ideally we'd walk and cycle more, but that's not a BEV thing, it's a societal assumptions thing.

Since we don't live in a world where any of us are unquestionable dictators we have to live with compromises. And it feels like people are fighting against the steps to improve local air quality and reduce the damage from climate change because it's the wrong colour (apologies to Douglas Adams).

[pete75]

TBH honest I was thinking of getting a BEV but all the self righteous crap in this thread is putting me off.

Buy a (decent) banger Pete. In my remaining lifetime I decided its the greenest and most sensible thing to do. All the desperate TV ads for new BEVs make me feel like weeping.

Al

I have got a banger, 7 year old Skoda superb estate. A Skoda is a banger from the moment it's made according to most car experts. Mrs gets a new e class every 2-3 years through her work.