BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19796
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Carlton green wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 9:12am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 8:53am And it's fairly easy to replace cells in a leaf battery as well, so they've got that going for them.
I’ve heard of folk replacing whole Leaf batteries too but in practice my search for folk who do that in the UK hasn’t turned up any results. One expert company that used to do it - funnily enough the same one as in the video above - has stopped: https://www.cleevelyev.co.uk/battery-upgrades/
That’s a pity really because ready supply of replacement and capacity upgraded batteries would allow otherwise good cars to remain in use rather than end up as scrap - amongst other things that’s a waste of the embedded CO2 from their original manufacture.
Yes - it really ought to remain possible for many years.
The video did highlight an extreme use issue with Leaf battery thermal control and I anticipate that the Taxi was charged a lot and not necessarily at low rate either. I’ve read elsewhere that the end position cell(s) are cooled least and so more subject to this failure, but really don’t currently know enough to more constructively comment on that.

120k miles, as in the video for the Taxi, sounds a lot but these days I’d expect that out of any car. Forty years ago my family parted with a 2CV :( , it was running well and had 150k miles on the clock.
I think it's the use of majority DC charging (and probably "enthusiastic" driving) that's the issue, not the 120k miles - though I know a lot of cars don't get to 100k miles.
I keep turning up decade old numbers, but the average mileage at scrappage in the uk is reported as between 106k and 125k - that marries up with the ~13 years typical age that is more current with ~8km/year typical usage.

I'd also wager that your family spent some not inconsiderable time and effort maintaining the 2CV in good running order.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
reohn2
Posts: 45174
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 10:00am .........I think it's the use of majority DC charging (and probably "enthusiastic" driving) that's the issue, not the 120k miles - though I know a lot of cars don't get to 100k miles.
I keep turning up decade old numbers, but the average mileage at scrappage in the uk is reported as between 106k and 125k - that marries up with the ~13 years typical age that is more current with ~8km/year typical usage.

I'd also wager that your family spent some not inconsiderable time and effort maintaining the 2CV in good running order.
My Ford Smax is 13years old and has 94k miles on and has at least another 70k miles use in it yet.
Story alert:- I once bought a 6year old Ford Mondeo 1.8l petrol estate with 46k miles on the clock privately for £2,400,one owner well maintained car.I ran it to 150k+ miles with minimal work on it outside normal servicing brakes and tyres,IIRC two front springs,a couple of brake pipes and small patch repair to one of the door cills,it regularly returned between 48mpg.
When I sold it the car looked as good and was running just as good as the day I bought it.I only sold it because MrsR2 didn't like driving it and we were reducing down to one car.
I sold the car to a young chap who'd been made redundant for £690 and was going to use it for a private hire taxi.Two years later I was cycling along when I saw R42 SBU with a "private hire" sign on the roof coming in the opposite direction,heaven knows what the mileage was by that stage in it's life!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19796
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

I have no doubt that individual vehicles will do substantially more than the average - that doesn't stop the average being exactly that.
minimal work on it outside normal servicing brakes and tyres,IIRC two front springs, a couple of brake pipes and small patch repair to one of the door cills
"normal servicing" covers a multitude of work - including replacement fluids and parts at regular intervals - some of which entail quite some disassembly and reconstruction of the engine.
Basically none of which is required with an electric motor - since it has but one moving part.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
reohn2
Posts: 45174
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 10:48am I have no doubt that individual vehicles will do substantially more than the average - that doesn't stop the average being exactly that.
minimal work on it outside normal servicing brakes and tyres,IIRC two front springs, a couple of brake pipes and small patch repair to one of the door cills
"normal servicing" covers a multitude of work - including replacement fluids and parts at regular intervals - some of which entail quite some disassembly and reconstruction of the engine.
Basically none of which is required with an electric motor - since it has but one moving part.
I can't argue with the electric motor POV,but that's not the problem with BEVs presently,as has been posted,it' the batteries that give the owner grief.
A well maintained ICE powered car,other than a few bad examples,are capable of well in excess of 150k miles without major overhaul if(that little word)maintained regularly and properly.
That maintenance schedule will without doubt cost more than a BEV to maintain upto a point in the car's lifespan,but because there are many good cheap by comparison ICE cars available BEVs will be fringe for the forseeable .
From a personal POV for the kind of motoring I do BEVs haven't matured enough yet to make them whporth me owning one,and I strongly suspect that's the case for the majority of car owners.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
Posts: 24774
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:11am ...
I can't argue with the electric motor POV,but that's not the problem with BEVs presently,as has been posted,it' the batteries that give the owner grief.
...
We've had one anecdote of a dissatisfied purchaser who had his payment refunded. I don't think that there's widespread "grief" amongst owners...

Jonathan
reohn2
Posts: 45174
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:18am
reohn2 wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:11am ...
I can't argue with the electric motor POV,but that's not the problem with BEVs presently,as has been posted,it' the batteries that give the owner grief.
...
We've had one anecdote of a dissatisfied purchaser who had his payment refunded. I don't think that there's widespread "grief" amongst owners...

Jonathan
My point was that if anything's going to go wrong with a BEV it's most likely to be the battery,it can be argued that there are more working parts on an ICE drivetrain and therefore more cnphance of trouble,but fact is ICE cars are a matured technology and as a result barring catastrophic failure(which is usually due to a lack of or incorrect maintenance)can be repaired quicker and more efficiently than a battery going down on a BEV.
TBH I would like to believe in BEVs but they haven't matured enough yet and there aren't enough secondhand vehicles on the market to make an assessment of their worth,time will tell but it'll be for a long time yet before they're mainstream and trustworthy IMHO
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
Posts: 24774
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:33am ...
TBH I would like to believe in BEVs but they haven't matured enough yet and there aren't enough secondhand vehicles on the market to make an assessment of their worth,time will tell but it'll be for a long time yet before they're mainstream and trustworthy IMHO
Current (!) sales of new cars in Norway are about 83% BEVs. We're way past the need for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

Jonathan
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19796
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Well past it.

There is no uncertainty except for those who don't want to find out.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
reohn2
Posts: 45174
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:39am
reohn2 wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:33am ...
TBH I would like to believe in BEVs but they haven't matured enough yet and there aren't enough secondhand vehicles on the market to make an assessment of their worth,time will tell but it'll be for a long time yet before they're mainstream and trustworthy IMHO
Current (!) sales of new cars in Norway are about 83% BEVs. We're way past the need for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

Jonathan
I believe Norway has some pretty good tax relief on BEVs and has probably a lot more charging infrastructure.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45174
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:49am Well past it.

There is no uncertainty except for those who don't want to find out.
I can't find a BEV that I can afford which will suit my motoring needs,as I posted before when they're there and I can afford one I'll buy one,until then it's ICE power for me,and I suspect many,many more like me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Carlton green
Posts: 3676
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:39am
reohn2 wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:33am ...
TBH I would like to believe in BEVs but they haven't matured enough yet and there aren't enough secondhand vehicles on the market to make an assessment of their worth,time will tell but it'll be for a long time yet before they're mainstream and trustworthy IMHO
Current (!) sales of new cars in Norway are about 83% BEVs. We're way past the need for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

Jonathan
Reference for sales % please.

I’m guessing that electricity is very cheap in Norway, don’t they have a lot of hydroelectric power? They, of course, have loads of fossil fuel too. Perhaps the Sovereign wealth fund - what a smart idea - supports installation of a wide network of charging points.

BEV’s are continually maturing hence Nissan is very heavily invested in battery development. Solid state batteries will be game changers and they should be in mass production a little before 2030 - that’s IIRC and as referenced in some Nissan link that I gave in some recent post above.

The 2CV didn’t cost us a lot to run but the local Citroen agent was, IMHO, a thieving and incompetent good for nothing. As a youngster I helped with the maintenance but it can become impractically tough to continue running a vehicle when you can’t get specialist professional support for the jobs that you need to do. Strangely that brings me back to EV’s and batteries, getting specialist support might well be or become a problem.
[XAP]Bob wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:49am There is no uncertainty except for those who don't want to find out.
:lol: The contributors to this thread all seem to either be trying to find out or have found out enough to make reasoned judgments already. At the moment BEV’s are, for many people, either too expensive and insufficiently practical. However once sold state batteries are mass produced and the new and second hand costs of BEVs go down a lot then things will be very different, but to my mind that transition is looking like a decade and more away
Last edited by Carlton green on 28 Mar 2023, 1:48pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
Posts: 24774
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:38pm
Jdsk wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:39am
reohn2 wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:33am ...
TBH I would like to believe in BEVs but they haven't matured enough yet and there aren't enough secondhand vehicles on the market to make an assessment of their worth,time will tell but it'll be for a long time yet before they're mainstream and trustworthy IMHO
Current (!) sales of new cars in Norway are about 83% BEVs. We're way past the need for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
Reference for sales % please.
https://www.electrive.com/2023/03/02/ev ... -february/

Jonathan
Carlton green
Posts: 3676
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:45pm
Carlton green wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:38pm
Jdsk wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:39am
Current (!) sales of new cars in Norway are about 83% BEVs. We're way past the need for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
Reference for sales % please.
https://www.electrive.com/2023/03/02/ev ... -february/

Jonathan
Thank you. I wonder why that is happening in Norway.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
pwa
Posts: 17395
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pwa »

Carlton green wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:53pm
Jdsk wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:45pm
Carlton green wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:38pm
Reference for sales % please.
https://www.electrive.com/2023/03/02/ev ... -february/

Jonathan
Thank you. I wonder why that is happening in Norway.
Much higher average wealth, fuelled by sales of gas and oil.
Biospace
Posts: 2019
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

Carlton green wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:53pm
Jdsk wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:45pm
Carlton green wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:38pm
Reference for sales % please.
https://www.electrive.com/2023/03/02/ev ... -february/

Jonathan
Thank you. I wonder why that is happening in Norway.

No purchase tax or VAT

No road traffic insurance tax

Company car tax discount

Half price toll

Half price parking

Use of bus and taxi lanes

There is 9% of all Europe's public charging in Norway, even though it's 0.7% of the European population. There are grants for installing private charging stations, and for housing association ones. It's considerably cheaper and easier to run a BEV in Norway than the alternative.

https://blog.wallbox.com/en/norway-ev-incentives/
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