Gravel bikes off tarmac?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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peetee
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by peetee »

Oh dear. This has turned into Brake Wars again!
I only mentioned them by way of describing the capabilities of each bike comparatively.
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mattheus
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by mattheus »

peetee wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 4:14pm Oh dear. This has turned into Brake Wars again!
I only mentioned them by way of describing the capabilities of each bike comparatively.
Don't feel guilty! Many pages back d**c brakes were first posited as essential/quintessential, and several posters have indicated their game-changing properties. Not unreasonable to offer - rationally - a dissenting view!
rareposter
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by rareposter »

mattheus wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 12:19pm
rareposter wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 11:50am They're terrible for any number of reasons
< ...blah blah ...>

Yes, we all managed fine on cantis 20-odd years ago. But no-one would ever go back to them!
Even if we accept your "number of reasons", your closing statement is so erroneous that you only have to look back a few posts before yours to see it!
What I meant was that we all managed fine* because no-one had any choice in the matter - until V-brakes came along, that was pretty much your only option, notwithstanding that drum brakes have been used occasionally in cycling - more often as tandem drag brakes rather than standalone systems.

*with occasional stops to haul clogged mud out from around the tyre/brake area, some white knuckle hauling on levers to bring a laden bike to a stop downhill and some extra careful riding because you knew the rims were getting thin... ;-)

But one of the major enabling factors, first for MTB and then for the development of gravel bikes was undoubtedly the move away from rim brakes - the "braking power" and "well set up cantis are powerful enough" argument is largely irrelevant, it's the host of other restrictions that rim brakes put on frame, wheel/rim and tyre evolution that were the main sticking points.
mattheus wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 4:29pm Not unreasonable to offer - rationally - a dissenting view!
Very true! :-)
This is worth a watch for some of the dissenting views but also shows the similarities (as other people have mentioned) with MTB just with a divergence in marketing from MTB -> gnar / rad / hardcore while gravel went -> fun / exploration / participation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcTF6TAtytA
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by rualexander »

Nearholmer wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 10:18am
My short experience of cable discs (TRP Spyre) was that they were less good than cantilever, needing really hard pull, and a lot more anticipation.
I've got TRP Spyre cable disc brakes on my recently purchased gravel bike and I'm more than happy with them, far better than I was expecting given the amount of criticism cable disc brakes seem to get.
They are more effective than any rim brakes I've ever used and only differ from hydraulics in the amount of lever force required to brake hard, I can still fairly easily lock up the wheels with them though.
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by Nearholmer »

I’d got used to one finger braking on hydraulics by the rime I got to the manual discs, so maybe I’d been spoiled, but I very quickly got fed up with sqaushing the flesh of my fingers between the levers and my bones, which I’d never experienced with the cantilever ones.

I was pretty disappointed not to get on with them, because I was drawn by the simplicity of cables, and I thought the mechanism driving the pads was very ingenious …… I wanted to like them.
Gearoidmuar
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There are two kinds of Gravel Bikes.

Post by Gearoidmuar »

I've both.
At home in Cork, I've an Orbea terra 10x2 Aluminium Gravel bike. It's great. It has a wider range of gears than my old road bike, better brakes, fatter tyres so that I get zero pinch punctures and is comfortable.
In my holiday home I've a carbon fibre 29er, Merida, with 1x11, max sprocket 44. Front suspension fork which you can turn off. They really are functionally very similar, though the Gravel bike has mounts for luggage etc.
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RickH
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by RickH »

I bought a Muddy Fox Explorer MTB in 1986. It was brilliant & opened up the area local to me for off road riding. It was, however, a slug on the road so was only used for local riding unless I took it somewhere by car or, rarely, train. I missed the road bike I'd traded in so supplemented the Muddy Fox with a new road bike after about 18 months. Both bikes got used for different purposes without much overlap.

Fast forward to 2016/2017... I was looking to modify or replace the Muddy Fox as I was finding flat bars, & particularly using the shifters, was getting painful after around an hour & a half of riding. I'd already converted my, originally flat bar, Circe Helios tandem to drops. In the end I bought a 2016 model Kona Sutra LTD in early 2017 at a significant discount (& sold the Muddy Fox frame to someone wanting to a frame of that ilk to build a tourer). The Kona was only intended to be a replacement MTB (& sometimes tourer) but I'd bought up some 40mm Vittoria Voyager Hyper slick tyres (whenPlanet X were selling them as cheap end-of-line stock). The first road ride I did with those on saw me beating my best times on a couple of local Strava segments (unknown to me at the time - I only use it for logging rides & totting up total mileages - & I wasn't trying for them, just enjoying a ride). Since then my road bike (Kinesis Tk) has been unused & the Kona is, apart from the tandem, just "my bike". My only slight concession has been buying a 2nd set of wheels to run knobblier tyres (currently running 40mm WTB Raddlers) for more serious off road stuff (or studded tyres in the winter when ice is likely).

I'm almost certainly doing more off road riding now than when I had the Muddy Fox as the bike is fun to ride on road, & even with the Voyager Hypers, capable on most surfaces. I rarely find I'm seriously "underbiked", I reckon the extra tyre volume of 40mm tyres over 28mm ones is the biggest factor compared to a modern road bike. It is enjoyable to ride 20 miles or more on tarmac to find new off road routes. For longer adventures (or more carrying capacity for utility use) I can fit a full range of luggage - front &/or rear panniers, bikepacking seatpack &/or bar bag, or any combination thereof (13l Alpkit Koala seatpack & Ortlieb front panniers on a lowrider rack is one of my favourite combinations).

I reckon Gravel (or "all road", or "adventure") bikes are one of the best things to happen to the drop bar bike & much better than the pro rider emulating over-geared, skinny tyre "racing" bikes of recent decades (And even the pro road racers are often found running lower gears & wider tyres these days!)
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mcshroom
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by mcshroom »

I honestly think we get too hung up on bike names and types.

My "gravel" bike, a Genesis Vapour was technically marketed as a CX bike, but with lowered gearing and wider tyres it's basically a rough stuff bike or the sort of off road that gets a bit boring on a MTB, but is far more fun on a bike less overbuilt for the off road. I had a crash a few years ago and had to have my humerus bolted back together. Since then I've lost a lot of bravery off road and I realised that my hardtail was far more capable than my confidence would let me ride. The Gravel bike on unsurfaced farm tracks and forestry gravel tracks like Ennerdale is far more fun.

What I wish was that they were more sensible with the gear ranges, but that was restricted by the components at the time. I've currently got a 34x34 bottom gear which is too high off road for me really.

More importantly to me at the moment, is that it's a reliable commuting bike that can take big enough tyres with mudguards to handle what's left of the Cumbrian road surfaces. I'm also enjoying how clean the rims are after wet commutes, compared to my rim braked bikes.

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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by PH »

mcshroom wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 9:41am I honestly think we get too hung up on bike names and types.
I agree 100%. The labels are useful for communication, to give someone an idea of the type of bike under discussion, or for a retailer to filter the options. So when someone says Gravel Bike, we all have an idea of what's being referred to. That's all, no more than that, and the idea that something is a Gravel Bike because you ride it on gravel is equally misleading.
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

mcshroom wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 9:41am I had a crash a few years ago and had to have my humerus bolted back together.
Oof! Ouch! I hope you're okay now.
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by tim-b »

If anyone fancies a new bike at an excellent price, give it a go https://www.wiggle.co.uk/ragley-trig-bike-ultra-violet
Steel frame, 47mm tyres and a 5-year warranty
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
JohnMorgan
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by JohnMorgan »

Are not ‘gravel bikes’ what used to be called ‘touring bikes’?

Rack mounts, bigger tyres, lower gearing, ‘relaxed’ position?

I would think that ‘gravel bikes’ are perfectly at home on tarmac, then.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by al_yrpal »

Gravel bikes = great marketing ploy to sell more bikes. My Salsa Vaya steel light tourer (bought many years ago) fits the spec exactly.

Al
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by peetee »

JohnMorgan wrote: 2 Apr 2023, 8:02am Are not ‘gravel bikes’ what used to be called ‘touring bikes’?

Rack mounts, bigger tyres, lower gearing, ‘relaxed’ position?

I would think that ‘gravel bikes’ are perfectly at home on tarmac, then.
In terms of capability, yes, you are right. There are two discussions going on here; on the one hand we are talking about intended use in the context of bike material and design and on the other how each design is presented to us by the manufacturers in order to make it appealing to the public. There are, and always have been bicycles that are capable in environments beyond that which they are primarily categorised.
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Nearholmer
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by Nearholmer »

Code: Select all

 Are not ‘gravel bikes’ what used to be called ‘touring bikes’?[/quote]

Yes, no, and sometimes.

The thing that quite a few UK old-stagers seem to be in denial about is that there is a race discipline, originating in the US, based around gravel roads, and that there is a class of bikes optimised for that purpose. It began with CX bikes and whatever else was to hand, but now has a specific breed of fast, light bike, slacker than CX, and accepting wider tyres. That’s where the word “gravel” comes from, and a goodly proportion of the bikes sold under that heading are at least to some degree race-optimised, although most in the UK aren’t raced.

That is not the same as “touring”, and it’s very unlike trad British “rough stuff”.

But, that gravel road racing trend is also intertwined with bike-packing, which is touring, often with a large off-road component, and usually with fancy US-inspired baggage, rather than trad touring baggage. But, the line between the two is a fine one. The bikes for this range from the racy ones with bags on them, through to 29ers, depending upon the terrain they are meant to tackle, and even more confusingly there are a few long-distance bike packing races.

The upshot is that in the UK “gravel” is a term used to encompass pretty much anything off-road short of MTB red and black runs, and people ride a whole mass of different bikes to do it, including the odd vintage Dawes tourer.

As has been pointed out back up thread, the things that have really helped enable wide participation in this are disc brakes and fairly wide tubeless tyres. You can do it on a Dawes Tourer with neither of those, but it gets bl@@dy slow and uncomfortable once the ground gets significantly bumpy, whereas wider, softer tyres, enabled by disc braking, allow you to go quicker and bumpier.

Of course, nearly everyone rides whatever bike they have onto terrain where it is just a bit sub-optimal, because doing that is good fun, so that blurs things even further.

You just have to get used to the idea that, as it’s applied in the UK, “gravel biking” covers a very wide range of things, and that people do it on a huge range of different bike types .,,,.. it’s happily very fuzzy edged!
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