Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Jdsk
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 10:22am This cyclist, who was doing everything advised to protect himself, was nevertheless stopped three times to try to persuade him not to ride. The police even thought it necessary to use blues and twos!
Would it not have been more reasonable to stop cars entering the foggy mountain road in order to advise them that in the conditions it would be best to observe the advice "drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear". Obeying this would remove danger to the cyclist, the drivers and their passengers and any others up there.
...
I wouldn't want to play whataboutery between those two courses of actions. Perhaps both would have been wise.

Do we know what steps the police took to warn all road users of the conditions and the danger? We know that the road wasn't closed but I haven't seen anything else that they did or didn't do. Until they reminded all motorists that cyclists frequently use that road and that both types of road user should behave safely.
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Jonathan
Mike Sales
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 12:51pm
Mike Sales wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 10:22am This cyclist, who was doing everything advised to protect himself, was nevertheless stopped three times to try to persuade him not to ride. The police even thought it necessary to use blues and twos!
Would it not have been more reasonable to stop cars entering the foggy mountain road in order to advise them that in the conditions it would be best to observe the advice "drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear". Obeying this would remove danger to the cyclist, the drivers and their passengers and any others up there.
...
I wouldn't want to play whataboutery between those two courses of actions. Perhaps both would have been wise.

Do we know what steps the police took to warn all road users of the conditions and the danger? We know that the road wasn't closed but I haven't seen anything else that they did or didn't do. Until they reminded all motorists that cyclists frequently use that road and that both types of road user should behave safely.
https://twitter.com/TweetbeatIOM/status ... Hs8LUtAAAA

Jonathan
I do not think that I am guilty of "whataboutery". What I want to do is concentrate on trying to tackle the danger at source, which is very much neglected. On the contrary, it is assumed that drivers will be going too fast, but there is nothing to be done except to get cyclists to wear hiviz. (which the police clearly did not think was enough for safety on this occasion at least) Slowing down if you cannot see there is nothing in the way is an elementary precaution, and we should be reminding drivers of this as often as possible, until it becomes the accepted wisdom.
Warnings to drivers about 126 are mentioned nowhere in the reports of this incident. I think that such warnings would have been mentioned, if they had been given. Such warnings to drivers are vanishingly rare.
When reminded of this basic way of driving safely I have often heard drivers object that they would have to go much too slowly. A campaign to inculcate safer driving in this respect is badly needed.
Attempting to close roads to cyclists is not an equitable solution to the problem of dangerous driving. We should be encouraging more cycling, not continuing to scare us off the roads.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 23 Mar 2023, 1:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jdsk
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 1:29pm ...
What I want to do is concentrate on trying to tackle the danger at source, which is very much neglected. On the contrary, it is assumed that drivers will be going too fast, but there is nothing to be done except to get cyclists to wear hiviz. Slowing down if you cannot see there is nothing in the way is an elementary precaution, and we should be reminding drivers of this as often as possible, until it becomes the accepted wisdom.
...
I agree.

But that doesn't bear on the reasonableness of the reported police actions in this incident.

Jonathan
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 1:36pm
Mike Sales wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 1:29pm ...
What I want to do is concentrate on trying to tackle the danger at source, which is very much neglected. On the contrary, it is assumed that drivers will be going too fast, but there is nothing to be done except to get cyclists to wear hiviz. Slowing down if you cannot see there is nothing in the way is an elementary precaution, and we should be reminding drivers of this as often as possible, until it becomes the accepted wisdom.
...
I agree.

But that doesn't bear on the reasonableness of the reported police actions in this incident.

Jonathan
Yes, but I want to show how the police actions here are a reflection of the general police and safety establishment analysis of how to improve safety. And that this is flawed, and results in no change in road conditions which deter cycling, which assumptions work, quite explicitly, to drive us off the road.
We should, if, for many good reasons, we want to get more people in the saddle, do our best to make the roads less intimidating. This episode illustrates very clearly that many people see our roads as too dangerous for cycling. I think that it makes clear that hiviz is not the answer, but restraining the source of road danger has to be.
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mattheus
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Post by mattheus »

I saw a story about the police on the internet.

I don't like things the police sometimes do.

So I used this opportunity to air my grievances.

The End.
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 12:45pm
Vorpal wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 2:39pmI thought it was pretty clear that I meant the *drivers* don't seem to understand the cyclist's right to be there.
Vorpal wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 2:39pmI'd rather talk to the people that called to report him to find why they think the cyclist is a problem.
The sources that I can find are the cyclist's tweets and blog and the police's tweets. Are there others?

How can we know that the drivers didn't understand the cyclist's rights or that they thought that he was a problem?

Thanks

Jonathan
We don't for certain. That why I used words like 'seems' and said I would want to talk to the drivers to understand the specific circumstances.
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Cowsham
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

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Mike Sales wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 12:44pm
Had to fix your post there. you left out one of the quotes
Last edited by Cowsham on 23 Mar 2023, 11:18pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Cowsham
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

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Mike Sales wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 12:44pm
Cowsham wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 12:16pm
To start with the laws of the uk don't apply on the IOM they have their own.
I am afraid that the laws of physics do apply. I was not refererencing the law, merely the commonsense advice given in the HC.
Do you not think that, short of closing the road, stopping and advising drivers that being able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear is worthwhile? Are they incorrigible?
I would hope that any injured road user gets the same compassionate treatment on the IoM as in the UK, even if they were a driver at double the posted limit.
Clearly this cyclist was not breaking any law: he was able to continue. The jurisdiction does not arise.
You may think that riding this road is inadvisible because of the way motorists behave. Fair enough. Many people see cycling on any road as too dangerous. I think that this is a great pity and that we should try to reduce road danger. Getting drivers to follow p.126 would be a good start.
The police saw the problem as the presence of the cyclist, not the dangerous speed of the drivers.

I agree with everything except the last sentence -- the police there are, in my experience very reasonable and will try to help or facilitate visitors in any way they can but that's a dangerous road, not only from cars but from motorcyclists who think they're Peter Hickman.

If the cyclist was cycling to Ramsey via the A18 he could encounter other dangers. A tractor on a bend or leave the road altogether on that drop down to Ramsey, partly because of his speed or water on the rims from the thick fog, so there's more than just dangers from vehicles, the road itself is a challenge.
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Cowsham
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Post by Cowsham »

Vorpal wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 2:55pm
Jdsk wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 12:45pm
Vorpal wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 2:39pmI thought it was pretty clear that I meant the *drivers* don't seem to understand the cyclist's right to be there.
Vorpal wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 2:39pmI'd rather talk to the people that called to report him to find why they think the cyclist is a problem.
The sources that I can find are the cyclist's tweets and blog and the police's tweets. Are there others?

How can we know that the drivers didn't understand the cyclist's rights or that they thought that he was a problem?

Thanks

Jonathan
We don't for certain. That why I used words like 'seems' and said I would want to talk to the drivers to understand the specific circumstances.
You make unfair assumptions about the Manx constabulary and you haven't answered the question
" would you have spoken to the visitor cyclist at all to make him aware him of the dangers of that road especially in manannans cloak?"
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

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Cowsham wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 11:23pm

You make unfair assumptions about the Manx constabulary and you haven't answered the question
" would you have spoken to the visitor cyclist at all to make him aware him of the dangers of that road especially in manannans cloak?"
I don't know if I would speak to the cyclist. I said I thought it reasonable to go out & see why people had reported him, but stopping him just to say, 'hey, it's foggy. you'd better be careful' seems pretty pointless, unless you are going to do the same for every road user. It might be more appropriate to stop motorists and warn them that it's foggy & there's a cyclist on the road.
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Cowsham
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

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Vorpal wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 7:45am
Cowsham wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 11:23pm

You make unfair assumptions about the Manx constabulary and you haven't answered the question
" would you have spoken to the visitor cyclist at all to make him aware him of the dangers of that road especially in manannans cloak?"
I don't know if I would speak to the cyclist. I said I thought it reasonable to go out & see why people had reported him, but stopping him just to say, 'hey, it's foggy. you'd better be careful' seems pretty pointless, unless you are going to do the same for every road user. It might be more appropriate to stop motorists and warn them that it's foggy & there's a cyclist on the road.
So every time you'll get concerned calls about a cyclist that goes up on the mountain you'd station at least 5 police units to cover each way onto that road.

Well at least they wouldn't have to do that for 4 weeks of the year. ( ie cycling banned on tt course which includes the A18 during those 4 weeks obviously it's closed when racing is on.

( I've witnessed a man getting arrested for being on the course before a practice session heard he was in court the following morning and spent the next fortnight in jail in his own city of Manchester his only appeal would have to be to the court in IOM. )
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Post by Airsporter1st »

The fog was light enough to drive quickly in but unfortunately you’d be onto a walker or slow moving cyclist before you knew it”

Something of a contradiction there!
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Post by mattheus »

Airsporter1st wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 10:33amThe fog was light enough to drive quickly in but unfortunately you’d be onto a walker or slow moving cyclist before you knew it”

Something of a contradiction there!
That phrase is a google-whack

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22fog+ ... s-wiz-serp
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

Post by Vorpal »

Cowsham wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 9:21am

So every time you'll get concerned calls about a cyclist that goes up on the mountain you'd station at least 5 police units to cover each way onto that road.

I neither said nor implied that.
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Re: Cyclist stopped 3 times by police

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Vorpal wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 1:24pm
Cowsham wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 9:21am

So every time you'll get concerned calls about a cyclist that goes up on the mountain you'd station at least 5 police units to cover each way onto that road.

I neither said nor implied that.
You'd do nothing then -- bit like typical police here -- the island thank goodness is a different place. I feel safe there.
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